Baxter State Park AT concerns - Wow

[BaxterBear]

Hello all. My first post is going to be a good one.

I have carefully read the document from my good friends at Baxter and they are spot on. In fact, they have many friends who carefully sift through blog posts, Facebook posts, trail journals.... for any sign of this kind of behavior. Trust me, they are dead serious on this. I know for a fact that they are ready to ban the AT from Baxter by 2019 if massive changes are not implemented. And they will not hesitate for one second. They have to put up from so much crap from massively self absorbed thru hikers each season. It's very grating and unless something is done, the grand mountain Katahdin will be denied for all future thru-hikers.

If someone would like to see some current and direct evidence in regards to the amount of disrespect they have to deal with during thru-hiker season, take a look at but one of the 2014 blogs I have discovered ( and passed onto Baxter ) where a thru-hiker shows absolutely no shame in his disrespect for Baxter State Park.

The thru-hiker is named Kyle Rhorig and he completed his thru-hike on 10 October 2014, during his 195th day on the trail. Kyle is a classic "partier" and is exactly who Baxter and the ATC are up against.

http://www.kylethecatalyst.com/author/kyle/

Part of the log kyle wrote about his summit:

" The sign that marked the summit of katahdin and the northern terminus of the Appalachian trail. The sign that marked the completion of a fantastic accomplishment and the end of a great journey. I walked up to the sign and placed just my index finger on it for about 2 seconds and dropped my hands back to my side. Done. The feeling I felt at that moment was the equivalent of the biggest collective sigh I’ve ever had in my life. My whole body just relaxed as I felt every fiber in it exhale as if I had been holding my breath for the last 195 days. It was a tremendous feeling. I felt tears swell up in my eyes uncontrollably, but I didn’t get the crazy “crying face contortions”. Just about half a dozen frozen tears squeezed out before my emotions turned to pure happiness as we all began congratulating and hugging each other. We all took our pictures with the sign and some group pictures. Katana even got her own solo picture with the sign. Being that it was freezing, and the wind was sustained probably close to 30mph, with gusts stronger than that every now and then, we decided to start heading back down. It was close to noon by this time, and many of the clouds that had shrouded the mountain were burning off. The view that was uncovered was the most fantastic I ever saw. So dramatic, colorful and powerful it was, I could think of nothing better to look at and be left with at the end of such an amazing adventure. I allowed katana to follow along with us as we made our way down to the tablelands. At this point, it was “mission accomplished”. I didn’t care what kind of trouble we got in now. Nothing could ruin today. I was ready to pay any fine they slapped me with. I was trailing behind with her when another guy heading to the top came by us. He wasn’t wearing a uniform, but all his matching gear gave him kind of an “official” look. He stopped next to katana and knelt down and said “this is a fine looking dog, may I ask if it’s a service dog?” “The jig is up” I thought to myself. I could have lied I suppose and told him she was a service dog, but being forthright just seemed like the right path at this stage. I had been caught fair and square in my game of cat and mouse. “No she is not” I replied. “Are you aware that it is against park policy for non service animals to be up here?” He answered. “Yes I am” I replied. He seemed a little surprised by my honest answers, and a little unsure of what to do. This led me to believe that he was probably not a ranger, but probably someone who worked closely with the park, or was friends with those who did. The last thing he said to me was “You know that you’re cheating the system by having a dog up here right?” I thought about that statement for a few seconds and then said…..”do you know why I came out here on this journey for 6 and a half months?” He didn’t say anything. “Because **** the system” I said, and continued my climb down. He didn’t say anything else to me. I’m positive he called down to alert officials though, as you will see in just a moment. Maybe that wasn’t the best thing to say to someone in that situation, but in my flurry of emotions, it just felt right. In a way, this whole journey kind of felt like you were sticking it to “the man”. Like “look at me! I can live in the woods, do what I want and be happy without having to deal with your stupid social norms, rules and expectations of being a productive drone to a depressed society!” This felt like the cherry on top to all of it. "


If you examine the wording carefully you will see EXACTLY the type of person Baxter State Park is talking about. And there are hundreds like him. Their primary purpose is to party and reach Katahdin. They are not interested in flip flops of any kind. They will have NO involvement in the Appalachian Trail after they have their selfish thru hike. In fact, they REVEL in breaking the laws and ignoring permits and rules - it adds to their sense of accomplishment.

The ATC and Baxter are facing some very, very, difficult choices in the very near future. Big change is coming, the only question is if these two parties can display the leadership needed to have positive effect with minimum onerous rules and regulations. I fear the worst. Benton and Myron must be rolling in their grave/urn right about now.

Thanks for the time it took to read this long post.

[Don H]

And hundreds of people every year climb Katahdin and follow the rules.

Enforce the rules, fine the rule breakers and quit threatening the rest of us!

[TJ aka Teej]

I still cannot get over the Park telling the ATC and NPS that the AT is not Federally designated within its boundaries, however. Just seems odd to mention if not true-- and most shocking if it is really true.

IIRC the ATC rep (J.T. Horn?) was told tough chit regarding the Daicey Pond re-route.

[rickb]

Baxterbear,

Welcome to Whiteblaze.net. If you have not discovered already, I am sure you will find a wide variety of opinions and perspectives on this site.

Your's are most welcome, especially since they seem to come from a different foundation than most here. I don't agree with your overall assment of today's thruhiker's but, clearly the one you found on the Internet is not a god ambassador for that group.

One specific question.

You mentioned 2019 as a specific date by which the AT could well be banned from Baxter. Can you inform what the significance of that date is? Is there a memo of understanding with the NPS or such, that runs through then?

[vamelungeon]

Obey the rules or move the terminus outside of the park. I don't blame the park personnel for being sick and tired of the bad behavior. How do you discourage self centered mindless entitled idiots? I think a few nights in jail would be a good wake up call for some.

[Don H]

Maybe too much "HYOH".
I believe the self centered mindless entitled idiots are in the minority but command the most attention.
I notice that from info on the BSP that vehicle citations outnumber hiker citations. Maybe they should close the roads.
It appears as though BSP is sick of AT hikers to the point of nit picking, mentioning a hiker in Millinocket begging for money and complaining about hikers threatening to petition to extend the trail over Knifes Edge.

The answer is better education and stricter enforcement which is BSPs responsibility. The ATC should also play a major role.
If not move the terminus to Abol, BSP could save some money and maybe lay off some staff.

[Kevin108]

The place averages 5 hikers a day. They should be able to handle that. The more rules/fees/regulations, the more "wild" is removed from the wilderness.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[squeezebox]

I can believe there are people who start not knowing what they are doing, crash and burn at Neels Gap or shortly after. The it's a frat party folks who run out of money 1/3 thru, and are off the trail who spend half their time drinking in town. But some of those have unlimited amounts of money from daddy, and continue to Baxter. Try to get their dog under the the wire when the rules are clear. Daddy says I don't have to follow the rules. Try to get their dogs into the park, drinking alcohol in the park, What's wrong with these sociopaths?
The park has a right to protect itself.
Straaighten out you're not 3 yr old any more.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

I'm going to jump into the fray and say this- I have a sneaking suspicion the VAST MAJORITY of people that the BSP official is referring to are UNDER the age of 30. This generation of "me, me, me" is notorious for that. "Let's stick it to the man, mommy and daddy always told me I was special & everyone else should think so". One doesn't even ever have to set foot on the AT to see the entitlement mentality of some thrus; all you need to do is read WB, some Facebook posts, or blogs. It's sad, actually. The few will ruin it for the many, and "Wild" and "A Walk In The Woods" will only be part of the reason. Social media and the ability to get the tales of your travels out to hundreds of people will be the main reason there will be an explosion of hikers in the coming years.

Isn't it telling that it wasn't a 40 or 50 year old person was going around defacing Natoinal Parks out west with their "art" and then bragging about it? That's the mentality and the mindset that will destroy the beauty of the AT. I wonder how many potential and successful thru hikers are ATC members?

Don't get me wrong- I don't have a dislike for youngsters, it's just simple logical reasoning. For those of you who are taking care of the trail and Mother Nature and leaving no trace- thank you and rock on!

[Lone Wolf]

I'm going to jump into the fray and say this- I have a sneaking suspicion the VAST MAJORITY of people that the BSP official is referring to are UNDER the age of 30.

100% correct

[bat_manatee]

I'm going to jump into the fray and say this- I have a sneaking suspicion the VAST MAJORITY of people that the BSP official is referring to are UNDER the age of 30. This generation of "me, me, me" is notorious for that. "Let's stick it to the man, mommy and daddy always told me I was special & everyone else should think so". One doesn't even ever have to set foot on the AT to see the entitlement mentality of some thrus; all you need to do is read WB, some Facebook posts, or blogs. It's sad, actually. The few will ruin it for the many, and "Wild" and "A Walk In The Woods" will only be part of the reason. Social media and the ability to get the tales of your travels out to hundreds of people will be the main reason there will be an explosion of hikers in the coming years.

Isn't it telling that it wasn't a 40 or 50 year old person was going around defacing Natoinal Parks out west with their "art" and then bragging about it? That's the mentality and the mindset that will destroy the beauty of the AT. I wonder how many potential and successful thru hikers are ATC members?

Don't get me wrong- I don't have a dislike for youngsters, it's just simple logical reasoning. For those of you who are taking care of the trail and Mother Nature and leaving no trace- thank you and rock on!

Should they also "Get off your lawn!" Jumpmaster?

There are just as many old ****heads in the world as there are young ones, don't make the issue about age...it's about ****ty people. Baby Boomers are not exactly a shining example of social responsibility (except in their own minds).

ATW!

p.s. I'm a paratrooper and over 30.

[jacob_springsteen]

Isn't that just saying "Lets change the location of the northern terminus to a place where we think entitled, obnoxious behavior won't (yet) be considered to be a problem."? Katahdin isn't the problem, a subset of thu hikers apparently is. Relocating the northern terminus solves nothing but simply moves the problem further south. Its not a real solution.

OK. How about more ridge-runners on the trail then, instead? They will be paid for by fees charged at shelter sites along the AT.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

Should they also "Get off your lawn!" Jumpmaster?

There are just as many old ****heads in the world as there are young ones, don't make the issue about age...it's about ****ty people. Baby Boomers are not exactly a shining example of social responsibility (except in their own minds).

ATW!

p.s. I'm a paratrooper and over 30.

I'm not referring to "the world", I'm referring to the AT. As someone who appreciates the manpower and time necessary to maintain the trail, if some idiots go out and trash it, then yes, they should get the hell off my lawn.

I'm willing to bet my hazardous duty pay that the majority of the thru hikers trashing the trail & hostels etc are under 30.

[BaxterBear]

I learned about it from casual discussion with specific people. It is not a coincidence that both the ATC and Baxter have both spoken out about the issue, so close together. Even if it's not on paper or policy yet, it's always good to have options open for the future in case nothing is done.

[BaxterBear]

Both this post and the last are for rickb, I forgot to quote the post and add this detail:

I am in no means saying that all thru-hikers are like the person I revealed, but their numbers are increasing dramatically over the past 5 years due to numerous issues, social media, the parenting style of the early to mid 90's ( Everyone is a winner, you are SPECIAL, both sides win in a kids baseball/football game to not hurt their feelings, etc. ) the deterioration of the country, the mindset of an increasing amount of under 30's that they will never be able to achieve the American Dream, lack of confidence in the politicians, the overall relaxing of basic respect in the country and lowering of societal expectations and standards of conduct.

I am also in complete agreement that nearly 100% of the problem is partying hikers under 30 years old. Probably under 25 years old.

The person I shown you is not an isolated incident. People like the person I shared are the VAST majority of hikers during the peak season on the AT these days. It never used to be like this. We always had people out there to party, but sometime during the last 5 years there is a sense in the woods during the early season that THEY belong out there to party, and people out there who are serious about thru-hiking are the outcasts.

I experienced it myself during my thru hike at the start, middle, and end of the peak rush in March/April. Lone Wolf is spot on here with almost all of his posts.

[Don H]

The person I shown you is not an isolated incident. People like the person I shared are the VAST majority of hikers during the peak season on the AT these days. It never used to be like this. We always had people out there to party, but sometime during the last 5 years there is a sense in the woods during the early season that THEY belong out there to party, and people out there who are serious about thru-hiking are the outcasts.

If you're saying the vast majority of thru-hikers are rule breakers I have to disagree. Based on my own experience in 2011 I saw none of this in BSP and very little during my entire hike.

[Sly]

So, you have 2,000 milers ending their glorious hike with a puny anti-climatic dayhike. Have fun folks but don't stay for long at the end. And god forbid don't spend the night.

Have you ever been out of the south or above treeline? The climb and the mountain are magnificent, but it's a fragile alpine area where extreme weather happens within minutes. Of course there's no camping on the summit. They'd be dragging ill-prepared bodies down every other day. However, one can overnight in one of the established campsites. That's the way the park was set up, that's the way it's run. Unless you're a resident of the state of Maine you have no say.

[peakbagger]

BSP runs on a tight budget, they get little or no support from the state and have to self fund the operation of the park. They need to staff the park with trained professionals year round with a core staff and then they need to bring in seasonal staff with a reasonable level of training in June through September to handle mostly the weekends. The reality is that the majority of the campgrounds in the park are near empty for half the summer season and the sites in the north end of the park are very underutilized for 3/4 of the season. Typically for a campground like Katahdin stream the ranger is responsible to manage the daily check ins and checkouts, clean the facilities, deal with any problems that will occur with 60 to 70 plus campers, deal with the day use parking and the 100 plus dayhikers that come along with it. Throw in that they are expected to hike the trails and also deal with what usually are daily requests for rescues or assistance on the trails and adding in having to supply personal babysitting services for a minority but ever increasing percentage of thru hikers and I can see where the park is raising the issues.

I could see that it comes down to the that park would like to get ATC to commit resources to offload the extra work for handling thruhikers. ATC may want to assist but I expect that paying and finding a place for a full time ATC staffer 7 days a week for 2 months is not something that is easily funded. Even if they do have a full time ATC ridgerunner, the resources in the park are finite and much as some would wish and hope, the park is not going to expand the camping resources available in the park. I think the choice comes down to if someone wants to hike the trail and summit Katahdin they have two choices, make arrangements in advance using the systems in place or take their chances that they may have to sit outside the park for a day or two hoping to take advantage of the slots that are open. I expect some entrepreneur, like the AT Lodge will very soon start picking up folks at Abol bridge and driving them into the park for a fee to day hike the mountain.

With the exception of the week prior to labor day and the weekends in late august until Labor day, it is very rare not to be able to book a spot in one of the three Katahdin trailhead campgrounds at the last minute. Once September first is past, finding slots is during the week is almost guaranteed.

[Traveler]

Interesting reaction all the way around to the conditions documented by BSP. As a simple business problem, when 3% of your clientele who are revenue negative are causing you to spend a significant percentage of available resources to manage, the decision is easy. That the Park continues to support AT Thru's is a testament to their patience and desire to support the historic terminus of the trail (the AT thru the park to the summit is a very, very small percentage of land it has to support overall).

There are a few issues that the ATC may need to consider, the problems noted by BSP are also experienced on other areas of the trail. You can see a lot of posts on this board that reflect that. If the suggestion the ATC fund positions like ridge runners or other means to operate hiker services in BSP are serious, those services would be desired by other places that have high thru hiker support costs. This may mean a permit for registering with ATC for a thru hike may be in the future. That could be a cost of say $50 - $100 per person which would be used to support these positions that the AMC may be required to fund in places like BSP. Not paying this would not be much of an issue, but as an example there would be no official record of completing the trail, or other services would be limited like having to pay an entry fee into national parks/forests that are not required today.

The issue of self-policing the trails is perhaps the most reasonable and rational. Though I believe the HYOH concept is good, when the behaviors as noted by the BSP folks appear, it does little for the collective good of the tribe to ignore it or allow it to continue without saying something. I have to agree with some of the comments that it tends to be the 18 - 25 year old group who are at the center of this, from my experience. Perhaps easier for those with grey hair having both survived our early 20s and shepherding children through the process, there should be some conversation on how best to to do this. I am concerned without hiker self policing, we will eventually lose portions of the trail due to unrestrained behavior from people who either don't understand, or don't care about rules and their impact of behavior on others.

Then there is the issue of "ease of use". This combines both the trail services that used to be rather limited that have grown into a seasonal industry along the corridor and internet resources. Years ago planning for the trail did not have an "Easy" button by simply posting to a bulletin board asking "what should I take" and get answers from 20 to 40 seasoned hikers within 30 hours. We may have made this too easy a goal to reach for many people who may not have otherwise been interested, have the ability to prepare/plan, or be emotionally mature enough for the endeavor. Tagging for example has increased along the corridor (and brought up by BSP folks as a growing problem), in places that just aren't that easy to reach by car so some of this is within our tribe this behavior comes from in many instances. This behavior is supported by those who witness it and say nothing just as much as its supported by those who carry the paint cans.

As BaxterBear points out correctly, the folks at BSP are serious about these issues, which is not hyperbole. Its more our problem (as a community) to help resolve. BSP officials could simply close the trail at the park bounary and leave it to the ATC to do what they wish outside the boundaries of the park. That they have opted not to do this suggests a willing partner looking for help in solving the problems. I sure don't have a lot of answers outside if you see something, say something. But my guess is like any tribe or community, many of the answers lay here.

As Walt Kelly once famously said through his cartoon character, "We have met the enemy, and it is us", rings true to a great measure here. Just my two cents...

[ChefATLTCT]

Every thruhiker should work a couple months in a hostel down south before their hike. I did, after my hike,and discovered that thruhikers suck! and it was only Tennessee.

during two thousand we had party groups that contained many 30 plus year olds.

the day i finished, there were 40 dayhikers and only a couple of thrus, in fact, many of them chose to whip out there cameras and photograph me during a very emotional experience, in which I cried.some getting right in my face.