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  1. #61
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    Now that's just plain brilliant! I thought it only occured indoors.
    It happened to me indoors. Food poisoning(Oriental Restaurant) When it advanced to "uncontrollable shivering" I was fully aware of how important it is to be prepared. I realized I would not be able to start a fire to get myself warmed up to stop the shivering. My wife came to my rescue icon_bananaFire.gif

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsherry61 View Post
    Of course it can. And frankly, that is the danger of this discussion. As you say yourself, it is rare that you don't take extra clothing or rain-gear, but, there are apparently times when you probably prudently choose not to. And, I guess that is what I am getting at with my criticism of the soundbite nature of "The 10 Essentials". They are not essential, but they are absolutely wise to consider for every trip along with a good trip plan and telling people where you are going, practices which I almost, but not quite always adhear to.

    So, in the end, I'm not interested in doing away with the 10 essentials. BUT, I do think they need to be treated with less dogmatic rhetoric and included in a broader discussion of being prepared and managing risk. In other words, the ten essentials are absolutely NOT essential and they DO NOT stand up on their own without a broader, knowledge driven context.
    We may be in "violent agreement" as Another Kevin would say. How can I get warm, how do I stay hydrated, how can I be found, which is the second post in this discussion, should always be considered before going off into the forest alone. For me, lists with labels like the "10 Essentials" act as a fair guideline. These are questions most everyone can ask themselves for any hiking activity, be it an hour walk in flat woods, a 10 hour day hike, or overnight jaunt.

    I don't argue for the "10 Essentials" list per se to be included in every day pack, I do argue the elemental considerations above are at the root of the list. Its not just a simple walk in the woods if there is a slip or fall that immobilizes someone in an area where few hikers pass by. These considerations is why there is some gear that never leaves my pack regardless of where I am going or the prognostications of weather forecasters who have a fairly broad range of accuracy as I have experienced. Always in the pack are a rain jacket, a long sleeve technical fabric shirt, a CD disc (acts as a signal mirror), a whistle, a headlamp, wax covered matches and Vaseline coated cotton balls, water container, small knife, and a cap. As seasons change so does the pack contents, but those items are always with me when I have the pack.

  3. #63
    Registered User BuckeyeBill's Avatar
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    People say and do the dumbness things. If they didn't, Bill Ingvall wouldn't have much of a comic routine. In discussing the ten essentials, they can all be placed under four simple to remember rules of three.
    The rules of three are in order:

    1. 3 minutes without air. Should by any chance a person's windpipe be blocked or crusted, you have three minutes to act properly. Take a basic first aid class, learn CPR (things have changed in recent years) and remember if someone is choking and coughing they are still getting air. Learn the Heimlich maneuver.

    2. 3 hours without shelter. Depending on the current and predicted weather reports, you could die. Under this rule you should have carried something that is specifically a shelter or something that can act ass a shelter. Your ability to start a fire is filed under this rule. While you're at it, put your map and compass or GPS device here too. Just make sure you know how to use them and they have the latest updates as far as road access goes. Don't forget that survival whistle. I can't remember where I downloaded it from, but I have an app/book on my phone that is the US Army survival manual. I covers many things about shelters how to obtain water without a lake or stream. First Aid is a couple of chapters long. Finally it shows various ways to set snares and traps for small game to supply you with food. It is somewhat dated, but is still enough to get you through tough times. If it has fur or feathers you can eat it.

    3. 3 days without water. If you can't find a reliable water within 72 hours, your bodily functions will begin to shut down, and no you don't want to drink your urine. This is where water filters and or purifiers get filed. There are several lightweight units available and drops you can add that will kill any nastiness things that will harm you. Again a good map and compass or GPS unit should show the way to water sources. Try and get as closest to the source of the water as possible to avoid animal feces in the water or being secreted into the water.

    4. 3 weeks without food. Here is where prior planning prevents pi** poor performance. The extra time set planning ahead will leave you not carrying coming in short of food. I usually carry an extra days worth of full meals and plenty of extra high calorie/protein snacks. home made gorp, peanut butter and any thing else I can find without a ton of extra weight.

    The four rules of three are easy to remember and will act as triggers for the other items mentioned under them. While some of what I have written would not apply to the AT or other trails, I have hiked in places where you can get into a bad situation rather quickly if you don't have the right things with you, even on a day hike. I hope this helps , if not then just ignore it.
    Blackheart

  4. #64
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    People say and do the dumbness things. If they didn't, Bill Ingvall wouldn't have much of a comic routine. In discussing the ten essentials, they can all be placed under four simple to remember rules of three.
    The rules of three are in order:
    I like it, "The Rules of Three"....thank you!

  5. #65

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    Why not just put the 10 essentials in your day pack and quit worrying about it? It is a day hike so what is the big deal about carrying a pound or two of stuff you might not need depending on the season? Does it really make that big a difference? Better to be over prepared than have an "Oh crud" moment when you realize that you need those items you left at home because you out smarted yourself.
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeBill View Post
    . . . the US Army survival manual. I covers many things . . .
    Don't get me started on that one. . . or do.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeBill View Post
    . . . about shelters how to obtain water without a lake or stream. . . Finally it shows various ways to set snares and traps for small game to supply you with food. It is somewhat dated, but is still enough to get you through tough times. If it has fur or feathers you can eat it.
    Those army survival manuals often have a few good ideas in them buried in a lot of crazy stuff that is completely impractical in a real survival situation unless maybe you have an army and have no intention of self rescuing.

    Snares and traps . . . give me a break.
    1) Have you ever tried to feed yourself on snared and/or trapped animals? In most cases you spend more energy trapping than you ever will get out of any animals you catch.
    2) Under almost no circumstances will you ever catch enough game to sustain yourself. You are far better using that same time and energy moving through your environment toward self rescue than you are trying to catch a measly few bites of food. As you note in your post, you have three weeks before starvation sets in, so why are you wasting your time and energy trying to catch food instead of trying to get out and find help? . . . this is also my biggest pet peeve about almost every TV survival show. Why would anyone stay put trapping food and building elaborate survival shelters when there are few places, at least in the lower 48 United States, that are more than a couple days walk from help. Even if you're lost, two to three days walk in any single direction pretty much anywhere will get you within reach of assistance.
    As for collecting water, again the "Army Survival Manuals" often have some good ideas, but some are just silly. Kinda like food and shelter . . . a solar still? Really? You want to sit around all day in the sun to collect a cup of water? If you can move, just move out, find what water you can along the way, find what shelter you can to stay safe if you need to stop, and get the heck out of dodge!! Go find help. If you can't move, well, you can't run a trap line and you can't build an elaborate shelter either, so now, we're back to the 10 essentials maybe being a better idea than the army survival manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeBill View Post
    . . . I usually carry an extra days worth of full meals and plenty of extra high calorie/protein snacks. home made gorp, peanut butter and any thing else I can find without a ton of extra weight.
    Really? Why? Sure, cary some snacks you love to help lift your spirits. But whole meals of extra food? Again, back to your point about 3 weeks without food. . .
    I'm not lost. I'm exploring.

  7. #67

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    Typical list from a Millennial beginner. Forget the high tech gadgets. They fail when you really need them. Ask Search and Rescue.
    At least she didn't say to carry a cell phone.

  8. #68
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    The Mountaineers have published a generic list since forever. In print. From the library even.
    https://www.mountaineers.org/blog/wh...ten-essentials
    For those who feel the need for a list.
    Wayne

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by zelph View Post
    I like it, "The Rules of Three"....thank you!
    Thanks Zelph. I'm glad someone sees the bigger picture of the rules than just in their backyard.
    Blackheart

  10. #70

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    Oh geez...I’m going to die. I’m lucky if i remember to pack half that stuff. Usually (for dayhikes) it’s only my FAK, water, lunch, map, and maybe a jacket. Once, I was too lazy to pack food so went without. Not sayin’ it’s the right way but it’s my way.

    (My whistle and knife are missing so haven't carried those in a while.)


  11. #71
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    The overall list is not particularly bad but safety items should mirror the type of trip, who one is, what one is capable of, and should include experience if just a full demo with those safety items. For example, I see little use personally for a SAT ph or PLB on the AT between may - sept in otherwise "normalized" conditions. Yes, some folks consider the AT to have backcountry segments. I've seen others carry them, full FAKs, PLBs, compasses, maps, extra "safety" apparel, etc on front country and "backcountry?" high use highly maintained trails at high use times and they didnt know how to apply these items. These become similar to snake bite kits of the past.- wasted items to carry unless they meet someone else that knows how to apply these items....which IMO takes away from the notion of what backcountry is. Rarely to never do I see an absolute need for a heavy Leatherman multitool w/ screw drivers, bottle opener, corkscrew, multiple blades, nail file, etc.

  12. #72
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    Geraldine Largay relied too much on electronic connectivity which led to her death. She had extra food and water, maps, compass, cell ph, shelter, etc. She did leave her PLB behind which could have helped/saved her. BUT, what could ALSO have helped her regain the AT was some sense of which side of the AT she stepped off. If it was to her right and as she knew she was hiking NOBO with the AT generally running a north/NW direction she could have used her compass to head generally west to cross the well established known path of the AT. She was not injured. Sometimes survival is dependent on yourself traveling out NOT staying put especially with dwindling supplies and no more electronic connectivity after many days. I'm strongly opinionated the MOST IMPORTANT safety item to ever take into the backcountry is a widened skill set that is powered by emotionally level headed controlled awareness, thoughts, knowledge and wisdom.

  13. #73
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    I'm strongly opinionated the MOST IMPORTANT safety item to ever take into the backcountry is a widened skill set that is powered by emotionally level headed controlled awareness, thoughts, knowledge and wisdom.
    Agreed.

    In part because those skilled hikers will have thought to bring a flashlight if there is a realistic possibility that they might still be in the woods after sunset, or a rain jacket or such if there is a realistic possibility they might get caught in chilly downpour, or even a map if they are unfamiliar with the area.

    We have a much-climbed mountain in southern NH that gets the gear part.

    At the main enterence (not the best staring place for those who know Mount Monadnock, but most folks start there) the check in area will not only sell hikers lights and batteries and layers and snacks, but even microspikes.

    I have no way of knowing, but I’ll bet helping new hikers with stuff — and experienced hikers who just were not thinking when they headed to the mountain — has cut down on the nuisance rescues by more than a little.

    They even help impart a bit of wisdom — at least to the extent posting when sunset is qualifies as wisdom.

  14. #74
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venchka View Post
    The Mountaineers have published a generic list since forever. In print. From the library even.
    https://www.mountaineers.org/blog/wh...ten-essentials
    For those who feel the need for a list.
    Wayne
    For the late comers.
    Wayne

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    I haven't read that bit in Freedom for years. Thanks. I love how the original text is often so much more informative and informed than references to it. Right there in black and white the authors themselves are expressing that the 10 essentials is a tickler list to be edited as needed with knowledge of both your skill and the environment you will be in. At no point is there any suggestion that one should always pack the ten essentials, but rather use the list as a reminder to make sure you've thought through the things are are likely to be, but aren't necessarily, essential for your particular hike or climb.
    I'm not lost. I'm exploring.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsherry61 View Post
    I haven't read that bit in Freedom for years. Thanks. I love how the original text is often so much more informative and informed than references to it. Right there in black and white the authors themselves are expressing that the 10 essentials is a tickler list to be edited as needed with knowledge of both your skill and the environment you will be in. At no point is there any suggestion that one should always pack the ten essentials, but rather use the list as a reminder to make sure you've thought through the things are are likely to be, but aren't necessarily, essential for your particular hike or climb.
    Exactly! Non-commercial low tech suggestions. One of my oldest bookmarks. I used to bring the book home from library all the time.
    Wayne

  17. #77
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    As we look towards the coming 10 days or so, I wonder if waterings or more serious life preservers might be worth their weight. Nah.
    You never know just what you can do until you realize you absolutely have to do it.
    --Salaun

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by SawnieRobertson View Post
    As we look towards the coming 10 days or so, I wonder if waterings or more serious life preservers might be worth their weight. Nah.
    Stay on high ground. Avoid sitting under trees. Hiking probably isn't a good idea.
    Wayne
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  19. #79
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    No spirit of adventure there Wayne?
    Blackheart

  20. #80
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeBill View Post
    No spirit of adventure there Wayne?
    Too many years on the Gulf Coast. I donít do hurricanes if I can help it.
    I go West for my adventures.
    Wayne

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