2013 AT Thru-hike: 3/21 to 8/19
Schedule: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...t1M/edit#gid=0
Is that the Mountain Rescue Organization? http://www.mra.org/ ? If so, you must have been about 11 according to your stated age.
"Those young people who started their "summit" of Mt. Rainier from the foot of Nisqually Glacier lied. Their leader lied he had signed-in for the summit attempt. He lied he had spoken to the ranger. He lied he was not taking that route from the foot of Nisqually Glacier after all. "
Still waiting for dates - maybe you could look through this database and try to come up with matching data? http://mountrainierclimbing.us/sar/fatalities.php
Still waiting on info for the "first arrest in a Nat'l Park". What newspapers? When? Somehow, I doubt seriously that LEO would ignore ANY type of law breaking, esp. in a Nat'l Park from the inception of Yellowstone.
Don't have my "back up" at all, except for YOUR tarring an organization based on your erroneous assumptions on what BSA teaches. Been to a training lately? Summer camp? Scout meeting? Taught any merit badges?
I'm not even in the organization anymore - too many problems I couldn't agree with.
If I remember reading my history correctly, "the law" had to make a LOT of organizations comply with segregation. 'Round about 1964 or so, with slow integration after that.
As for "ridiculing good information", please cite the post(s) in this thread where I have done that. All I've done is call you out on what you, yourself, have been claiming. Don't know enough about your "bad information" to comment on it. I'd be willing to bet some SAR personnel say ALL people should stay away from the outdoors.
More than happy to apology, sincerely at that, for anything I have misinformed about.
Old Hiker
AT Hike 2012 - 497 Miles of 2184
AT Thru Hiker - 29 FEB - 03 OCT 2016 2189.1 miles
Just because my teeth are showing, does NOT mean I'm smiling.
Hányszor lennél inkább máshol?
I know there are a number of former and current boy scouts on this thread and I don't mean to offend anyone, but I have seen a number of poor practices from boy scouts.
From simple things like making 80lb kids carry packs that must have been North of 40lbs on 90 degree days, to leaving litter and trash behind... Not storing food properly... Cutting down live trees to make clothes lines.
The worst example was when I was hiking the LT in southern VT where it coincided with the AT. It had been pouring all day so I called it a day after only 7 or 8 miles and crawled into a shelter. After a few hours a troop moved in and took over. I understood the cold attitude because they had been hiking in the rain as well, but after they arrived an older couple came in soaking wet. The scouts made no offer to make space for them. I said, "we'll figure out a way to get you in" and the scout master chuckled and said "good luck, first come first serve"
I moved out and offered the couple my spot. They ended up pitching in the pouring rain and I packed up and pitched my hammock in the rain as well. I just felt unwelcome and didn't like how they ostracized other hikers.
All that said, for every poor encounter I've had just as many good encounters with genuinely nice scouts.
I have a 2 year old son and I will not be putting him in the scouts. For one, from what I've seen they teach bad habits and two, I disagree with their policy regarding gay scout leaders. Not to turn this into a political issue but they have a history of being slow to react to issues of human decency
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
I was a rope leader at 15 years old, same program as Jim and Lou Whittaker.
Jim saw me, asked me if I knew anything about it.
I said we had stayed up all night, practically. They lied, saying they had spoken to the ranger. They said they were doing a first ascent route starting at the foot of Nisqually Glacier. Nothing got thru to their leaders or their outspoken members of their number. They had great equipment we saw when their bus arrived. However, they said their only experience was climbing road-cuts in Pennsylvania.
It was a scouting group of young men and young women, like the special scouting for canoeing or sailing.
That is who I am.
Personal ridicule shows who you are.
I don't need to furnish the time and date: that is irrelevant to the topic.
The fact is, there was much anger from parents.
I happen to think the rescuers, individually and severally, should have sued each and every one.
Last edited by Connie; 03-12-2015 at 06:08. Reason: tiny touch pad
No "tar".
Right is right. Wrong is wrong.
Boy Scouts were one of the last organizations in the USA to "relent" about racism, in spite of the fact scouting is international around the world.
I think it would be worthwhile for that AT organization linked to poll SAR and all the search and rescue units across the USA for dead body recovery "cites" and any comments about it. That would be more productive than your "rant".
For every bad encounter with scouts there are many more troops that do things correctly, at least from my experience, both as a scout and as an adult.
Regarding your shelter experience, I am thinking that is against BSA policy for Youth Protection. When I was in scouts, on AT hiking trips we could stay at a shelter, but we had to set our tents up, and only after dark or a certain late time could we move to the shelter if nobody had showed up, knowing that if someone did, we had to move back to the tents.
A lot can change in 10 years, even for the scouts. You might want to check out some local troops when your son gets old enough, and see if things are different then. I disagree as well with the gay leader policy, but things will eventually change. Also, for teaching bad habits, sounds like a perfect way for someone to be able to show them the RIGHT way to do things.
Soumodeler -
That was a very eloquent and well thought out response. I don't disagree with anything you've said and I'm sure practices vary from troop to troop. I also know a lot of really good people who came out of the Scouts including a gentleman who use to work for me. He was an eagle scout and carried all of the virtues that go along with that.
I just can't get behind an organization that intentionally denies a population of people to be in their leadership. I'm sure they will change as political and social pressure mounts. That said, I wouldn't want my son in an organization that only does the right thing because of political and social pressure.
I don't want to come off like I'm against the scouts. I'm really not, I think they do a lot of good things. Writing this reminded me of a troop from NY state that took a group of inner city kids from NYC out to Bear MT in Connecticut. We ran into all 30 or so of them as my father and I were climbing the MT and they were descending. The scout leader told us how these kids had never gone camping, never seen the sun rise over mountains... And a lot of the kids seemed really blown away having experienced this.
So I get that there is a lot of good.
Been following this thread, including all the back-and-forth anger from a couple of you. I was also in the Boy Scouts. Eagle. Way back before cable TV and 'Peace with Honor'... Back then, the BSA had great practices, etc, etc, but I do think something has been lost over the years. But that having been said, the BSA was a lifesaver for me and is probably a lifesaver for countless boys today. And I absolutely have a great respect and affection for the organization, the volunteer leadership, and the skills and qualities I learned there.
....sorry about a few nitwit BS leaders who don't themselves have any manners - but that's the exception, not the rule.
I absolutely respect your opinion on this, but you would be hard pressed to find a similar organization that has not changed due to public pressure or opinion in one way or another. Society as a whole generally requires pressure to change for the better. It may not be the ideal way to change, but in the end, at least it was changed.
Sorry for the thread hijack. For the OP, please bring a tent!
Scouts and other groups of 10 or more are not supposed to clog up the shelters. The group is being disrespectful of the other hikers and the AT in general.
72 posts and the OP hasn't responded.
We've been setup.
LOL. He was either a troll and is laughing his a** off at the responses and direction of the thread or was so embarrassed by the sheer number of posts that said that it was a completely stupid idea that he hasn't decided to respond.
Remote for detachment, narrow for chosen company, winding for leisure, lonely for contemplation, the Trail beckons not merely north and south, but upward to the body, mind, and soul of man.
I agree with all of the positives the Scouts bring. Like I've said, I've seen a lot of good from them. Any group that provides structure and guidance to children and teaches them about the outdoors has very positive merits that I won't argue with.
Soumodeler - to your point about social change, you are right, but the Boy Scouts could have taken a more proactive stance. I mean this is an organization that didn't band segregation until 1974.... nearly 20 years after school systems, colleges, professional sports and most other institutions had changed.
If they had come out last year and made a definitive statement that no one would be judged based on sexual orientation, I would have considered giving them a pass. But in 2013, this is their stance?: "While the BSA does not proactively inquire about sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA."
It's just not something I'll support. Even if they change it next year, I would have a serious moral dilemma with enrolling my son, paying their fees and attending meetings / outings.
He's thru hiked twice - must be trolling. For what it's worth, he hasn't signed back in since a few hours after the original post.
Keep in mind that shelters are fuller when a really bad storm is coming. Some hikers have NOAA weather radio, so word gets around. The strong east-moving frontal storms are predictable down to a few hours. I had to sleep under a Gatewood cape on one occasion when a shelter was full, on the night of a major storm in SW Virginia in April, 2010. We had tornados, continuous lightning, and several inches of heavy rain.
In the morning my partner peeked out from his sturdy tent and meekly asked "did you survive?" (I did, but probably am marred for life).
Of course it's relevant when this occurred. Scouting has changed and is constantly changing over the years. To tar us with incidents that we have learned from and that have changed (at the least, the official policy, if not all the leaders), is just mean-spirited and not helpful in the least. I have no doubt that BSA has taught the wrong things in the past, and is teaching things today that are today's best practices, that we will find to be wrong in the future. The thing is, you've already shown that you are ignorant of what Scouting teaches today. We don't teach the rubbing method for hypothermia, and we don't teach the stream thing. (If lost, we teach STOP).
Time is but the stream I go afishin' in.
Thoreau
Every troop is different. Our troop tries to do things the right way. LNT is close to a way of life for us (could we be better, certainly, but we do our best). At Camporees I've seen all kinds of troops. I saw one troop that had two or three boys that were obsessed with digging holes in the ground. We asked their troop leadership to get them to stop and fix the mess they made--they didn't. We sent out our boys to fill in the holes, and do what they could to reduce the trace of them--in front of the other troop's boys. It's just what we teach.
You're exactly right about the shelter and youth protection. We went on a trip a few years ago (Pine Mountain, GA). We got in around midnight, so the Scouts slept in an Adirondack shelter (reserved by us in advance). The adults slept elsewhere--I was in a hammock, our scoutmaster in a tent, one leader (female) in a van, and two other leaders in the scout trailer.
Time is but the stream I go afishin' in.
Thoreau