That's a lot of crap!

[FatMan]

How can the ATC can control crowds, given the number of easy trail access points along the route? Unless there is a permitting system for all campsites, which would only corral the thru and section hikers, there isn't an easy way to do that.

Overcrowding can be managed one of two ways...either limit the number of hikers by instituting a permit system, or increasing the trail capacity with alternate routes. The second option could be addressed by making the BMT and DRT part of the AT system.

[MuddyWaters]

Yeah, lets ruin those too.
Any solution, besides limits and permits , is only temporary till you outgrow the band-aid.

[Traveler]

Overcrowding can be managed one of two ways...either limit the number of hikers by instituting a permit system, or increasing the trail capacity with alternate routes. The second option could be addressed by making the BMT and DRT part of the AT system.

Permitting would limit campsites to those on thru or section hikes, but day hikers (and scofflaws) will not be affected, those numbers represent a significant percentage. The fairly easy and frequent access points make it difficult to limit trail traffic.

The other issue is geographical, about 47% of the population in the US lives in the Eastern Time Zone (approximately 157,000,000), which are inside an easy drive to the AT. Compared to the PCT with approximately 14% of the population in the Pacific Time Zone (approximately 44,200,000) inside a day drive of the PCT. The population numbers alone will keep the trail busy as people seek mountain experiences in the eastern US.

[BirdBrain]

I hope no politicians are reading this. . They love to regulate in the name of compassion. It is very profitable. Seriously, if we cannot be saved from ourselves by ourselves, those with the ability to do so will do so gladly. Such an effort by those with the power to enforce it will have to be funded. They will be expected to be paid while they take our freedoms. It would be so much easier for people to voluntarily use the privies correctly and/or do it somewhere else properly. It should be easier. It does not seem to be. I still believe removing shelters would be the least painful option. It might not work. But enforceable regulations and permits are going to be more painful.

[MuddyWaters]

If trail clubs installed privies, they need to keep them clean and maintained. Same for shelters and fire rings.

These items facilitate more trail users. If you are going to encourage that, and the ATC does, you need to keep them policed at high use times.

I agree with LW, need caretakers and fees. No question about it.

[BirdBrain]

Any effort to make the trail more comfy, makes it worse. I wanted to kiss the first Dartmouth Outing Club sign I saw going south.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Pay Privies. Pay as you go. Literally. Yeah, I'm actually being serious. In order to pay the people who upkeep the privies. They need to be paid so that it can be done as a job - trained people, on a schedule, with the waste handled in a manner suitable for the given environment, etc. If you can afford to hike, you can afford a couple of bucks to take a dump.

[BirdBrain]

That might work. I like it.

[ATsawyer]

I believe the ATC does have a plan, which is to encourage flip flop hikes, taking some pressure off a Springer start. This may not be a complete remedy, but it can only help.

[Rain Man]

... I guess if the shelters gotta stay they should build two privies at each of the shelters up thru and including the Smokys.

"They"? Who is they? It's not "they," it's ... WE.

It's a nasty job but someone has to do it!

Exactly. Many want to hike. Few want to volunteer.

Also unfortunate that the ATC encourages everyone to crap in the same place.

I've been at shelters in the Smokies where everyone is NOT "encouraged to crap in the same place," and the result is disgusting "lily fields" of unburied toilet paper.

Unfortunately, privies take maintenance and that's a job few people are willing to take on ....

And THAT is the problem. Not the poop itself, but like litter-bugs, it's the people who think it's some lesser person's job to clean up after them.

I don't know how the GATC keeps up with the shelter/privy/trail maintenance these days.

I agree. It's AMAZING that volunteer trail clubs do as well as they do, with so many hikers who refuse to "give back" or "pay it forward."

Their solution is to charge campers $8 (may have gone up) a night for a caretaker. ... Thus human waste can be and has been successfully managed at backcountry locations but it requires human intervention.... Therefore human waste can be managed even in high volume sites

BINGO. Except for the self-centered, cheapskates, and anti-government kooks, a fee-based system is the one rational solution for hikers who won't, as a group, do the work themselves by volunteering. Hikers will pay hundreds and thousands of dollars on gear and gas, but whine about a piddling fee to keep their trail reasonably clean of poop?! The fee could be "paid" with credits earned for trail volunteer work.

Seriously, if we cannot be saved from ourselves by ourselves, those with the ability to do so will do so .... Such an effort by those with the power to enforce it will have to be funded. ... It would be so much easier for people to voluntarily use the privies correctly and/or do it somewhere else properly. It should be easier. It does not seem to be. ... But enforceable regulations and permits are going to be more painful.

I have had to step over poop and toilet paper in the middle of the trail. I'd gladly trade that for whatever you describe as "more painful." Not more painful for me, ... but maybe for the lazy and self-centered?

... In order to pay the people who upkeep the privies. They need to be paid so that it can be done as a job - trained people, on a schedule, with the waste handled in a manner suitable for the given environment, etc. If you can afford to hike, you can afford a couple of bucks to take a dump.

AMEN, especially on that last sentence. Payment could be (and maybe should be) in the form of credits for volunteer hours.

[BirdBrain]

Rainman, we are not in disagreement. We are the problem. It is preferable that we are the solution. What is more painful is when we are forced to be saved from ourselves. Such "solutions" turn into cash cows. I am not referring to those organizations that care about the trail. I am referring to higher authorities that really don't care about hikers.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I'm thinking that if all AT hikers were required by law to pack out their solid waste, TP, etc. in WAG bags or other methods to regulated disposal areas, and that if such a regulation were well publicized, that 1/2 of them wouldn't even show up at Springer in the first place. Which might not be such a bad thing. Then again, knowing how many people are, they would probably just leave the bags at shelters or elsewhere on the trail. Which while not good either, might be better than the current situation . . . Or not. Why do so many people have to be such pigs?

[Lone Wolf]

If trail clubs installed privies, they need to keep them clean and maintained. Same for shelters and fire rings.

These items facilitate more trail users. If you are going to encourage that, and the ATC does, you need to keep them policed at high use times.

I agree with LW, need caretakers and fees. No question about it.

at least you "get" it

[WingedMonkey]

Speaking of crowded privys and shelters.... the Hiker Hostel posted this today on their FB page....

"Saturday at Springer parking lot. 44 cars and already 77 thru hikers at Springer today!
We have passed the tipping point. The Appalachian Trail Conservancy needs to have a real plan. "Educate and self regulate" is not a plan."

I don't know how the GATC keeps up with the shelter/privy/trail maintenance these days.

Something about the Hiker Hostel complaining about too many hikers at Springer seems odd.

Not that I want them out of business, but what percentage of wanna be hikers choking the southern terminus are directly because of them?

[rickb]

Pay Privies. Pay as you go. Literally. Yeah, I'm actually being serious. In order to pay the people who upkeep the privies. They need to be paid so that it can be done as a job - trained people, on a schedule, with the waste handled in a manner suitable for the given environment, etc. If you can afford to hike, you can afford a couple of bucks to take a dump.

Not sure about a "pay at the door" plan-- I still harbor some resentment that my folks would never give me a dime to use the old pay stalls at the NYS Thruway rest areas.

But no reason why fees for campsites couldn't be charged-- either on site or in advance.

The first step would be to get over the idea that building outhouses or additional campsite ( well conceived and sited) will do more harm than good.

The second step would be for the ATC to make a strategic decision to spend a significant portion of its $7 million budget on this crisis -- a million dollars would not be too high a percentage to start -- and encourage the NPS and local partners to do the same. Even if you have a pay as you go plan, there will be a ****load of start up costs and their leadership and commitment would be key.

Of course, they won't. Plenty of good reason would be cited that have nothing to do with money.

But remember, when it's not about the money -- it usually is.

It is going to get far worse before a really bad solution is foisted up us.

[rickb]

Therefore human waste can be managed even in high volume sites

The Whites also have brick/cinderblock outhouses at a few of the popular trailheads-- like at the base of Moosulauke and going into Zealand Falls. Not cheap but they have no plumbing or electricity so I am sure they didn't cost the $500,000 +/- they spent for the one in the DWG. Not exactly the solution, but they do take the load off the backcountry sites some.

[Slo-go'en]

I've always wanted to set up a portapotty which was free to get into - but costs a buck to get out of

[4eyedbuzzard]

Not sure about a "pay at the door" plan-- I still harbor some resentment that my folks would never give me a dime to use the old pay stalls at the NYS Thruway rest areas.

But no reason why fees for campsites couldn't be charged-- either on site or in advance.

The first step would be to get over the idea that building outhouses or additional campsite ( well conceived and sited) will do more harm than good.

The second step would be for the ATC to make a strategic decision to spend a significant portion of its $7 million budget on this crisis -- a million dollars would not be too high a percentage to start -- and encourage the NPS and local partners to do the same. Even if you have a pay as you go plan, there will be a ****load of start up costs and their leadership and commitment would be key.

Of course, they won't. Plenty of good reason would be cited that have nothing to do with money.

But remember, when it's not about the money -- it usually is.

It is going to get far worse before a really bad solution is foisted up us.

Except perhaps where the AT goes through Designated Wilderness Areas - and even here, IMO, better to manage impact than prohibit those things that would protect it, as there is little true wilderness to be found where the AT has passed through - better back-country infrastructure obviously needs to be built to meet the human demands placed on the trail. There's really no way around it. The Whites without all the trail infrastructure and management would be a REALLY BIG mess. And all that infrastructure costs money. Which is why AMC, RMC, DOC, etc, all charge for many of their services. It's ALWAYS about the money at some point. Keeping the small illusion of wilderness that is the AT is going to get exponentially more expensive as usage increases.

[rickb]

I've always wanted to set up a portapotty which was free to get into - but costs a buck to get out of

I was warned of a similar strategy before a camel ride-- i.e. that I would be charged more to get off the beast than I paid to get on it. Fortunatly, that did not come to pass.

I would surrely have paid big money in both instances.

[Donde]

The other issue is geographical, about 47% of the population in the US lives in the Eastern Time Zone (approximately 157,000,000), which are inside an easy drive to the AT. Compared to the PCT with approximately 14% of the population in the Pacific Time Zone (approximately 44,200,000) inside a day drive of the PCT. The population numbers alone will keep the trail busy as people seek mountain experiences in the eastern US.

And yet PCTA is trying to get in front of their growth and do something instead of hoping it goes away like ATC is. I am not PCTA has it figured out yet but at least they are trying to be proactive. I agree with LW and Muddy regarding paysites and fess, I also think it is time for permitting.

The folks at HH being aware of the problem makes perfect sense. If we keep going the way we are the trail will be a shambles and their business will be gone. They want sustainable growth, you can sheer a sheep many times but you only get to skin it once.