The frivolity of hanging food bags

[BirdBrain]

so why does ATC SAY USE THE PCT METHPD? why not push the pillow method?


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It is a waste of time to chase false premises and red herrings. You will only come away wanting to hit your head on something.

[BirdBrain]

Elf has the answer. It is not a matter of viability. It is a matter of liability. Both work if done correctly. One way protects them better. One thing is certain. The ATC are not a bunch of idiots promoting a method that does not work.

[Odd Man Out]

In my e-mail conversations with Tom Smith, he agrees that the logic behind sleeping with food is sound and acknowledges that many wildlife biologists do this. However, he goes on to say that based on all of his experience, he chooses other options (hanging, canisters, and electric fences). My conclusion is that sleeping and hanging are both reasonable choices based on sound logic, evidence and science with the clear disclaimers that we are talking about using both strategies correctly and that the discussion is limited to the eastern U.S. I guess it should be no surprise that there is a debate about the "right" answer when there is not just one "right" answer. As for the ATC advocating one of these "right" answers, I would suggest that part of their motivation to advocate the PCT method is the attractiveness of conventional wisdom - it's familiar, easy, accessible, and safe.

I must admit I find the topic fascinating, partly because I am interested in our (i.e. people's) seemingly inherent inability to correctly assess risk. Every discussion about safety will eventually include the logic fallacy of "comparing one thing". In this context, there will always be the claim that sleeping with food is risky because bears are unpredictable wild animals and eventually, there will be one that will drag someone out of their tent, resulting in injury or death. While this is probably a true statement, it is irrelevant as a logical argument because it ignores the essential issue, which is how does the risk of one choice compare to the risk of the other. Because the risks associated with the alternative choices are often so different and difficult to assess, it becomes like comparing apples and oranges and the discussion digresses from logic to emotion.

[BirdBrain]

Well said OMO. HB opened my eyes to those truths. I once had a "my way is the only way" attitude towards this subject. He helped me see that there is usually many viable options when it comes to hiking choices. This is no exception.

[Offshore]

The "it fills with trash" argument is a common argument, but I really feel it's a cop-out. A Bear box full of trash is still a box full of stuff that bears can't get into. I've hauled out plenty of stuff left by others in bear boxes, it's usually obvious that it was left by people with no idea what they were doing (styrofoam plates, plastic utensils, tin cans, gallon jugs, wrappers from wal-mart blue tarps, etc.) and I think it's reasonable to believe that most of it would have been left at the campsites regardless of whether the bear box was there or not. I'm just happy that the critters didn't get to it.

I've carried trash out of bear boxes at shelters in NJ on occasion but its never really been bad. As Elf says, it prevents bear access to trash which affords the same benefit of preventing bears from associating shelter sites with food - bears don't differentiate food from garbage. In some trailhead parking areas in state forests and parks in NJ, they have bear resistant trash containers for the same reason.

Given the choice of sleeping with food, hanging, or using a bear box, I'll take the bear box. In the absence of a bear box, I hang. I understand risk - I work with risk assessments every day and the idea of sleeping with food just boggles my mind. By doing this, one is making an assumption that the presence of a human is probably more of a deterrent to a bear than the presence of food is an attractant. An occasional "expert study" may come along, but when it comes to personal safety, I don't care about probability - only one data point counts. The rapidly increasing bear population in northwest NJ combined with the increasing encounters with nuisance bears in this area make the idea of sleeping with food truly seem foolhardy. You don't need to be afraid of bears, but you need to recognize them as a potential hazard and use common sense (and very simple measures) to mitigate the risk.

[illabelle]

The rapidly increasing bear population in northwest NJ combined with the increasing encounters with nuisance bears in this area make the ideal of sleeping with food truly seem foolhardy. You don't need to be afraid of bears, but you need to recognize them as a potential hazard and use common sense (and very simple measures) to mitigate the risk.

When we hiked NJ spring of last year, we heard that there had been a bear hunt a few months earlier that had significantly reduced the population. We saw no bears at all.

[illabelle]

Where'd all the "frivolity" go?

[Hangfire]

When we hiked NJ spring of last year, we heard that there had been a bear hunt a few months earlier that had significantly reduced the population. We saw no bears at all.

I went through New Jersey in the summer (early August) and it was loaded with bears. This was the place that if you hadn't seen a bear yet you were probably going to see one, or in my case a dozen. There was also a hiker killed by a bear in Jersey last year but I don't think he was on the AT nor was he sleeping on his food bag so it doesn't count...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0HH1VY20140922

[Offshore]

When we hiked NJ spring of last year, we heard that there had been a bear hunt a few months earlier that had significantly reduced the population. We saw no bears at all.

I run into them pretty much every time I hike on AT here. According to NJ DEP, the 2014 hunt total was 272; 2013 was around 250. The 2014 numbers were probably affected by an early cold causing the bears to den earlier and by cold rainy weather for a lot of the week long hunt. From 2013 to 2014, reported sightings increased 38% and damage/nuisance complaints rose 58%. The estimated bear population prior to the 2014 hunt was 2800 - 3000 in the NW portion of the state (Where the majority are located, but bears are present in all 21 counties). Using the midpoint number of 2900, the 2014 hunt reduced population by about 9% in the NW portion of the state. I wouldn't consider that significant, given the increases in sightings and nuisance/damage reports despite the bear hunts.

I was talking to a long distance hiker the other night who told me he was more afraid of a black bear in camp than a grizzly on the trail. I'd never heard that perspective before.

[Another Kevin]

Warning: I'm a clueless weekender, so take what I say as a clueless position.

December to March around here, I don't worry. The bears have gone beddy-bye, and I sleep with my food.

Otherwise, when at established campsites, I hang (use bear boxes, etc.) - except that I rent a canister in Eastern High Peaks where canisters are required by law.

On bushwhacks, I know I'm not dealing with habituated bears. I hang if it's reasonable, but if I'm getting to a campsite when the light is fading, and I'm going to have a godawful time getting the line up a tree, I sleep with my food.

In Harriman, I might start hanging more often, after I had a fistfight with a raccoon in January. He didn't get my food, which was hanging from a nail on the shelter rafter. But he started dragging my empty pack out from under my feet, and made a fair distance by the time I had my bag unzipped and my shoes on to chase him. (Then again, hanging food wouldn't have kept him away, would it?)

[Digger'02]

Because of liability and other BS. Every now and then a bear pokes it's head in someone's tent, it's just gonna happen, but if an authority told you it was okay to sleep with your food then they would immediately be blamed for causing the bear encounter, whether or not the food had anything to do with it.

Sorry, but this is not the case. The ATC recommends hanging your food because all things being equal, it's the best call. Basically if you have to ask ATC, ATC is going to give you the best possible advice for the Trail, not what might be easy/ok for hikers given their current camping location.

[MuddyWaters]

Your food is safer with you.

You, are safer with your food somewhere else.


Hanging it properly, protects you , and the bear, reasonably well..

[bfayer]

Your food is safer with you.

You, are safer with your food somewhere else.


Hanging it properly, protects you , and the bear, reasonably well..

That is probably the most concise and reasoned answer to this issue I have ever read.

Agree completely.

[Cuacoatchoo]

I sleep with my food, but I think some forget an important part. It works because the food isn't left unattended. Food left unattended in a tent, hanging food bag, car or whatever is an attractive target for bears and other critters.

I agree bears are opportunist, but sometimes they see things differently than we do.

Last april in the smokies I got cornered at one of the firetowers. The bear didn't want to fight, but he kept creeping closer, clearly interested in my doritos. I figured out his strategy when the couple next to me did exactly what I told them not to do. They dropped their packs on the ground and climbed the fire tower. The bear took this as his queue and started creeping closer (20 feet). Shouting didn't deter him. Hitting him with rocks did.

I've heard several stories of bears encroaching the smokey mountain shelters. They may not be killing people which would make headlines, but they're hoping if they scare you, you'll throw food at them.

My fear, bear sees me sleeping. Thinks he could get into my backpack without waking me. I wake up and accidently scare him. He slashes my face with his claws.

If you're practicing good bear mitigation, you're cooking/eating/peeing away from both your tent and your bear bag. Hang the bag high, on a thin branch that can't support a cubs weight, tie the line off as far from the bag as you can. If they get my bag after all those efforts, I'll just switch to the cannister full time. So far though I've heard very few stories of bears getting well hung bags.

[BirdBrain]

Bears do not get properly hung bags. If a bear gets it, the bag was not properly hung. Too many people do it wrong. This creates the blind opinions of some. The same could be said about sleeping with food. How many stories have you heard about mice, squirrels, and chipmunks getting into food in shelters? Are we to conclude that sleeping with food never works because of those occurances? That would be ignorant. It is just a choice when it is done right.

[Slo-go'en]

Here's an excerpt from "ChamagneJam's 2015 TJ entry for 4-9-15:

We ran into Slow&Steady walking back from dinner and she had a very interesting night. She was sleeping in a bivy (ground shelter for a sleeping bag) and had a bear run it's snout down the side of her bag in the middle of the night looking for food, then wild boar visited her campsite, and she woke up with a spider bite. She was almost airlifted out, but was able to walk out and had a successful ER visit.

[teefal]

Aq2 Z JMM MY

[martinb]

Last april in the smokies I got cornered at one of the firetowers.

Bears in the Smokies are a different breed. Do not sleep with your food, there. I've had one pop out of a bush, after opening a bag of jerky, at a campsite.

I hang everywhere and have never had my food (or me) molested.

[Wanderingventurer]

Just use an Ursack and be done with it!

[4eyedbuzzard]

While bear attacks are VERY rare, they do unfortunately happen. And I don't think the notion that because an incident like the death in NJ last year "wasn't directly on the AT itself" changes anything. You are in the woods, on the bear's turf so to speak. The bear doesn't differentiate the AT from a blue blaze trail from any other man assigned definition. The more ways you can reduce the chance of winding up in unsafe proximity to a bear, or worse drawing one to you by your behavior, the better. Hanging food away from your camp is obviously less likely to attract a bear directly to you than sleeping right next to it. Bears are big, wild animals. Generally they will run off when they see/sense a human and want no part of us. But the fact remains that if they wanted to, they can run you down and kill you at will. Just be cautious and respectful.