Wouldn't matter to us, we would be in our tents or hammocks.Originally Posted by rickb
Time is but the stream I go afishin' in.
Thoreau
I must have been blessed with a great troop. in the 90's I went on my first section hike with my Boy Scout troop in the Whites. It was the trip of a lifetime.
Will add that my Scoutmaster had us cleanly avoid shelters all together. Lots of talk of haunta virus even then. I've never been drawn to them.
All that to say, don't avoid the AT because of the rotten eggs. I'm glad my troop didn't
You can't always expect or get adult leaders, and by turn, their charges to behave as you would like.
When I was an assistant scout master, I took my son's troop over the Kinsmans in the Whites. We all camped separately from other hikers and the 'rule' was to stay out of folks' way, be quiet at sunset, and leave no trace.
On the other hand, when doing a trip with friends in the Wenaha Wilderness in Oregon, I encountered a troop of maybe 40 kids in the alpine zone, where there were clear rules to limit the size of parties to 12. The alpine zone was already thrashed - too many hikers, too much pack-trains - it was sad to see people so oblivious to their surroundings.
This is an old thread but somebody bumped it back up and I noticed the word "etiquette" in relation to the rat-box AT shelters and had to laugh. Hikers who depend on these hepatitis-boxes are probably the same kind of people who dial in a SPOT rescue as soon as a snowflake falls and the temps plunge to 40F. It's the entitlement generation I guess.
AT backpackers need desperately to spend 10 years backpacker in areas without these shelters and they would sing a different tune. "What shelters??" should be the main thought in your head when you're out backpacking. Have everything on your back to survive rainstorms and thunderstorms and blizzards and arctic cold snaps to -10F.
Somebody needs to write a decent screed against AT shelters and I guess it's up to me:
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=480560
MAIN POINTS---
** Shelters erase any feel of wilderness . . . a shelter becomes an Interstate highway Rest Area so take the exit along with everyone else.
** What normal man would want to sleep butt-to-butt with other strange men??
** Hikers who sleep in shelters are like urban squatters sleeping under a bridge abutment.
** QUOTE: "The only good thing about these AT carports is they lure in and congregate the idiots whereby I can disperse camp a mile away and avoid the lunacy."
** THIS SUMS IT UP FOR ME:
BOX DEPENDENT
" The shelter residents actually have the gall to say the shelter has rules like no dogs and yet they are wrong as the shelter is a wide open piss tank available to anyone for any activity. If you're dumb enough to use them on your backpacking trip and too lazy to set up your own shelter then you have nothing to say for yourself in defense of your space while in one of these rat boxes. Because once you air a single complaint you are advertising your unwillingness to rely on your own shelter system. You willingly have allowed yourself to be box dependent and this choice negates any indignation you may have with fellow occupants in the same box. You're all in the same boiling pot of sewage and slowly cooking in a rat box induced retardation."
" Once dependent on these mud homes people get prickly as if shelters have rules and they develop a strong sense of entitlement to these open sores. "No dogs! No tents inside! No smoking! No room except for me and my friends!! No noise after 9pm!! Full up, sleep in the rain!!! I was here first!! Here, take a hit! I'm a thruhiker, you're not so make room for me! I've been on the trail for 4 months and will now take your questions! We are high mileage experts, now you may ask your questions! Gotta catch up with my friends Turd Blossom and Semen Tank!!! Did they sign the register???!!"
This was written in January 2015, well before thecyclops original post and is therefore not personally directed at him, actually.
Last edited by Tipi Walter; 08-14-2015 at 13:17.
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Having met my wife at an AT shelter 25 years ago come Labor Day weekend, I think they have some value.
Of course she was smart enough not to sleep there, or any others since.
That trip aside, they still have their place on the AT for those who find value in sharing the company of others, I think. Good place to cook and eat a meal in the rain, too.
As for etiquette at a shelter, all it really comes down to is "don't be a selfish ass". You may not be able to demand that of others, but it is a reasonable expectation.
I avoid shelters. However like most with many bag nights I've spent a few nights in shelters. Always in cold and wet weather. Shelter partners vary as do their behavior. Inexperienced hikers usually cause the most stress. My policy has to be open with communication and always will do my best to make everyone comfortable.
Only people I have a real issue with are those who carry no reasonable shelter. I have left a shelter and set up in cold rain for people without shelter before. I've told them good thing many of us have the experience to be prepared because if not you'd be having a dangerously difficult night.
Go get 'em Tipi.Once again you are my hero. I ain't carrying your pack or anything resembling it though.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln
Boy, there sure are a lot of posters getting bent out of shape about shelters. If you like them, use them. If not, stay the hell out of them. Is that so difficult to comprehend? The tone of some people's rants are truly amazing and downright scary.
If someone could just forward this entire thread (all 89 posts) to GSMNP...
What's a hiker to do if they don't like shelters but have no choice?
There's the bamboozling!
It's called Ridicule and Opinion, the last freedoms available in America. But scary? What's scary are the actual App Trail shelters.
What is scary is that people would actually fight over the rodent farms. The OP sought a solution. The easiest and most prudent solution is to be prepared to not be in one. If they are not willing to be prepared for that, then they should be prepared to argue with equally unprepared hikers. Unprepared hikers are the scariest thing on the trail.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln
Tipi Walter, I think you're being a bit too negative about the shelters. But only a bit.
I'll happily use a shelter if the weather is bad, it seems reasonably free of vermin, and it looks as if I (or my party) have it to myself. If the weather is nice, or the rodents and bugs are out in force, or I'd have to snuggle with strangers, I'll just as happily use the tent I've brought with me. I understand that A-T hikers in most seasons will seldom find that a shelter is unoccupied by both humans and destructive creatures. I wouldn't know. I've slept in an A-T shelter once in the last five years, and that was in subzero temperatures, which do discourage the bugs and rodents just a bit. It also wasn't quite planned. I was interested in the conversation around the fire, got in my sleeping bag for warmth, and woke up the next morning still in the shelter, with my tent pitched out back.
I don't bring a dog into a shelter because I don't have a dog. I don't smoke, in or out of shelters. I don't set up a tent in a shelter because it's not lawful where I hike. If I want a tent to get out of the wind or get out of the bugs, then I don't use the shelter. The noise I make after 9 pm on the trail is typically snoring. Or maybe coughing. And flatulency, of course. But you're not going to hear it, because I don't camp in occupied shelters, and if others join me, I typically move off to my tent. I made an exception a couple of years ago (and not on the A-T) when I got to an unoccupied shelter about thirty seconds ahead of a hellacious thunderstorm, and was joined in the middle of the night by a hammocker whose tarp had been damage by wind-borne debris. He turned out to be simpatico. I've been hiking with that guy a few times since.
Then again, I guess I'm not one of the entitled people "who dial in a SPOT rescue as soon as a snowflake falls and the temps plunge to 40F." I do carry a PLB. I've gone 15 miles on a badly sprained knee (that forced me off trail for the next six weeks) rather than light it. The sprained knee wasn't yet a life-threatening emergency. I also sleep rough in negative single digits F and stay pretty comfortable. (Colder than that, I'd need to buy some better winter gear if I wanted the trip to be fun. I could be safe, but not comfortable, in -20 with my current setup.)
"Shelter? What shelter?" is, however, right up there with "trail? what trail?" in my opinion. About of a third of my hikes involve at least some off-trail travel. Yeah, I carry GPS also. I typically look at it maybe 5-10 times a day, just to cross check and make sure I haven't done something idiotic with my map and compass navigation.
You'll no doubt say that carrying GPS is showing a lack of self-sufficiency - because I've heard you say it. You'd no doubt say that carrying the PLB is irresponsible and leads me to do reckless things, or will tempt me to unnecessary activations. Because I've heard you say that too. And I just heard you reiterate your opinion of shelters (with which I wholeheartedly agree if we're talking about the A-T in a busy season). But I say that all these things are perfectly fine in their place. And I don't believe that I'm ruining your wilderness experience just by having the gadgets in my pack.
Oh, yeah, and shelters are a nice place to keep the log books out of the rain. And no, I've never seen Turd Blossom's name in the register. The lilacs are lovely where the outhouse used to be.
I always know where I am. I'm right here.
Another Kevin makes good points. My GPS experience is zero not because of a need for self-sufficiency but if a map ain't broke don't fix it. Of course I see waypoints and the fascination with these numbers as needless minutiae and newb drooling for backcountry technology. Just carry a good topo 1:24,000 map.
I would carry a personal locator beacon if I thought I was important enough to save or if I thought getting back home to be vital and immediate. Can I crawl to a road? Good enough.
I do carry maps (preferably at 1:24000 scale) and use those primarily. But the USGS topos are getting very long in the tooth -so good 1:24000 maps may not actually exist. My GPS is there mostly so that I can update OpenStreetMap with modern trail alignments and facility locations. I've actually seen some of my updates make it onto the USGS web site. For some purposes, they pull from the open source data. On many trips, my GPS is there to make maps, not to subsitute for them. It's a heck of a lot lighter than toting an alidade, a plane table, a chain and a leveling rod.
As far as the PLB goes, I've got friends and family who are going to send The Authorities looking for me if I don't make it back. Whether I want it or not. I carry a PLB because I hope to reduce the time, cost, and risk that the searchers will have to put into finding me. I think I'd really pay for it in the Hereafter if my accident made a rescuer into another victim. In many of the scenarios where I'd envision lighting it, I don't expect to be alive when searchers would get there. I gave the sprained knee example to point out that not every hiker with electronics is the sort that would say, "Good Heavens! We're out of Chardonnay! Call Search and Rescue!"
I always know where I am. I'm right here.
It may not be the shelters per se, but numbers of people they attract , their LNT ethic, and their level of preparedness to be on trail to start with. Even if you dont stay at them, the nature of the whole trail is affected.
A lot of people would never hike without shelters. This is why some groups choose the AT, fully ignorant of group size restrictions, or worse, willfully ignoring them. Because there is a shelter, and they are afraid to be without it.
Shelter hate is a proxy for everything people dont like about the trail. Crowds, garbage, partying and noise, clueless people, smelly privies, large groups, etc.
Last edited by MuddyWaters; 08-14-2015 at 19:30.
Shelters are simply any type of public housing.
I would argue that the shelter's aren't necessarily scary, it's the fearless mice, gigantic rats and occasional rattlesnake that inhabit the that are a bit worry some...Well that and I have a good idea of the activities that a minority of people engage in inside the shelters, that alone is enough to give me pause before getting near one.
I will admit to occasionally setting up my tent inside a shelter in the dead of winter when there a good amount of snow on the ground and I am feeling too lazy to pack down a tent site. Of course there is nobody else around when I do this so it's not bothering anyone.
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
Haaaa this is spot on!!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We had planned to stay at Overmountain Shelter back in December but it was full of a bunch of partying Teenage locals drinking and smoking weed so we moved on and stealth camped. Kind of disappointing though.
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