The Negative Effects of FKT's

[BirdBrain]

I am feeling the need to be redundant. As a native Down Easter, I vote to have the end of the trail be in a bog in the 100 Mile Wilderness. If idiots can't grasp that they are in a special place, let them get drunk in a bog. This rant has nothing to do with Scott. I still don't know what he had or who brought it. My rant is towards those that are telling Baxter to shove it. Kick them off BSP. They obviously are unteachable. Don't like what I am saying? Think it is only a few? Then get in the idiots faces before the AT loses Katahdin.

By the way, if Baxter ever says enough is enough, there is no authority that the AT community can appeal to. It is totally up to Baxter if another thru steps on that land. They are trying to plead with the AT community. It is astounding what the response is from some.

[illabelle]

One negative effect of SJ's FKT journey for me is that I overdosed on WB, especially yesterday morning. Now clicking the "What's New?" button makes me very slightly nauseous. I'll get over it in a few days, I'm sure.

[Just Bill]

Bill, early on in the other thread, perhaps the Jeoy Champs thread, you eleuded to something else was going on behind the sceenes in the trail running world. I couldn't find it the other day while looking and was wondering if you ever further addressed that...just curious.

Nothing in particular rings a bell...
Though to be fair I been so busy rant, raving, spewing and ringing the ol' church bells that my head is ringing too after the last few weeks.

I coulda been simply implying my bias towards the unsupported efforts and looking to draw some attention Joey's way.

[Sly]

One or two FKT attempts per year hardly equal the number of AT thru-hikers causing concern with BSP.

[Lone Wolf]

One or two FKT attempts per year hardly equal the number of AT thru-hikers causing concern with BSP.

correct and most FKT for the AT will start at baxter with very little fanfare. this thread should be titled "Negative Effects of Thru-Hikers". dozens upon dozens of folks that have never backpacked are flocking to georgia every spring

[rocketsocks]

Nothing in particular rings a bell...
Though to be fair I been so busy rant, raving, spewing and ringing the ol' church bells that my head is ringing too after the last few weeks.

I coulda been simply implying my bias towards the unsupported efforts and looking to draw some attention Joey's way.

perhaps it is my bell that has been rung to many times, it may have been just as easy as that, I really, can't recall, oh well no biggie then.

[Another Kevin]

Hmm.

I'm not going to complain about anything that draws more people to the trail. Even if they're Entirely The Wrong Sort Of People, with behaviour that is less than exemplary. Get them out in our midst, teach them, and some of them will actually become members of our community. As Just Bill put it in an earlier post, the Trail is our recruiting office. It's where the next generation of conservation advocates will be formed.

Now, of course, as with any big slug of newcomers, there will be misbehaviour. It may take marshalling a greater volunteer effort, or a greater paid effort, to enforce the laws and educate about the etiquette. By all means, we need to do what it takes to protect the resources, but I'm even willing to cut a few corners there. If the Trail corridor, or a portion of it, becomes a sacrifice to the recruiting effort, so be it. We need to have the wilderness in the public consciousness as something worth having. Our enemies aren't the people who have newly arrived and don't know how to treat it. They're the ones who can be developed into our friends. Our real enemies are the people who have no concept of the value of the place, and want the government to subdivide it, sell it off and develop it - because, say they, we can't afford to have that much land "not working." The people who would love it to death are misguided friends, compared with those who would sacrifice it on the altar of Mammon.

Now, pursuing the trail as an extreme sport doesn't particularly appeal to me, despite the fact that at the end I watched Mr Jurek's achievement with a sort of morbid fascination. But as long as runners are treated alike to other users in terms of conservation behaviour, I don't care all that much. I'm just as happy with the runner putting in fifty miles as with the eight-year-old putting in five and learning what the woods are like. They will both be advocates later.

The record-pursuers are few in number, even if we count their followers. Very simple law enforcement and crowd control could take care of most of the ill effects.

Likewise, thru-hiking doesn't appeal much to me. I personally have never had a time, and never expect to have a time, when I can just walk away from my life and responsibilities for half a year for an extended trip. But I'm happy to follow vicariously the adventures of those who do, and even occasionally offer them a handshake on trail. (Or once in a while,. actual help... the sort of "trail magic" that doesn't simply mean "Party!")

The sheer number of the thru-hikers does indeed present a problem, but the problem is constrained largely to the two ends of the trail: specifically, the first hundred miles, which washes out most of them (and a greater proportion of those who don't belong!) and the last few, where the resources are fragile.

Part of the issue there, I think, is that the trail starts and ends on high mountaintops, a long way from civilization. I think that the designers of some of the long trails that predate the A-T had better ideas. (I won't fault the A-T designers: none of them ever imagined that a thru-hike would even be possible someday!) I can think of a couple that had interesting ideas.

The New York Long Path as originally envisioned was not a blazed route, but rather a series of landmarks that the hiker would have to find his own path to. This might involve roadwalk, trail walking, bushwhacking, or even tolerated trespassing. This was in a simpler time, when outside hunting season, no farmer objected to a walker crossing his fields, provided that crops were not trampled, livestock were left unmolested, and gates were left as the walker found them. (Even I can remember when that was accepted.) As pressure grew, this idea was no longer accepted, and the Long Path now is blazed from its start on the George Washington Bridge to its current unceremonious finish at a STOP sign in Altamont, New York.

But the Long Path still preserves one idea that intrigues me: it's a pilgrimage from urban civilization into the wilderness. It begins, as I said, at the George Washington Bridge. Right in Manhattan. It hikes up, using a variety of parks, through suburbia and gradually out into the wilderness. (The hundred-mile section through the Catskills is awesome hiking!) The plan is to bring it up all the way into the Adirondack Park, which is as wild as anything in the Northeast gets. (I include the Hundred-Mile Wilderness in that assessment.) The beginning of it is in a place that a walker cannot damage any worse than it already is. The end is pristine.

The Northville-Placid Trail, another trail older than the A-T, instead took the attitude that it passed through the wilderness. As originally envisioned, it began and ended at railroad stations, the ends of their respective lines, so that the termini would be accessible to anyone in the pre-automobile age. It took off from Northville, beginning on roadwalk, then on old logging roads, and gradually into wilderness trails in some of the remotest sections of the Adirondack Park. (And it is remote. There are a couple of nearly-forty-mile sections that are entirely roadless, with no easier way out than hiking the trail. Even the Hundred-Mile Wilderness has drivable logging roads at twenty-or-so-mile intervals.) At the other end, it gradually comes back onto the old roads, and then onto the highway, coming finally to the train station in Lake Placid (which still runs the occasional excursion train, even though, it has no scheduled service any longer).

In neither case is there the temptation to celebrate the completion of a hike while still in the wilderness. The trail begins and ends in a town. You can celebrate among friends, in a suitable venue, and be congratulated by those who lack the fortitude to make the trip to the summit themselves. And that celebration might even recruit more; who's to say that the stranger in the pub who asks what the party is about won't start feeling the nagging pull to try it himself?

So some of these problems can be addressed by management; some of them can be addressed by trail design; some by facility design (there has been reseach in recent years about how to design shelter and campsite areas, for instance, that I can see bearing fruit on some of the trails I hike). But the fundamental "too many people" problem is a non-problem. People aren't going to love the wilderness, and want to protect it, until they know it. If that means we have to protect and sanitize enough of it to get a bigger crowd of newbies started, I say, bring them on.

[Just Bill]

correct and most FKT for the AT will start at baxter with very little fanfare. this thread should be titled "Negative Effects of Thru-Hikers". dozens upon dozens of folks that have never backpacked are flocking to georgia every spring

Beyond my admiration for the athletic accomplishment... I suppose at the root of my rooting for these folks is the attention.
As Jane pointed out earlier, my generation is likely the last to have been introduced to the woods by traditional paths. (Scouts, family trips, or other positive educational and productive means)
The millennials, and even my own children and their generation will not have such an opportunity for the most part. But if folks don't keep coming out...
My generation is relatively small compared to the boomers and millennials, so even if we CSNY it and "teach our children well" it won't have much impact overall.

Every hiker has a story about scoring a hitch or talking to a trail neighbor who doesn't even know the trail they live next to exists- even on the AT.
Every hiker has a story like this; yesterday I went for a hike with my family to Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore on an amazing day in an amazing park:
And we had it all to ourselves.

Several lamented on the other thread that Scott didn't receive any real media attention, and they are right.
And so are you pappy, FKT's aren't a big deal really. But they do draw attention. So do the books, movies, and anything else we can get our hands on.

I suppose the root of the issue is simple enough:
Do you want folks to come to the woods?

We can read about a mass of folks starting to show up, and we can rightly lament the fact they don't know what they are doing and mess things up a bit.
We can shake our heads, or even shiver a bit in terror when we read the letter baxter sent out last year.

We can also read a story like this- http://www.pmags.com/pawnee-grasslan...nged-landscape
Where just off the beaten path where no one is watching things are falling apart.
Where even when folks are paying attention... they don't have the money or the votes.
We are long past the days where a David Brower creates a clever add and sways a nation.

To me it's a simple manpower issue.
Those that support the woods are limited. Those that come to the woods are few. Those that know what they are doing when they get there are fewer.
What's worse- Having folks out that you can hopefully educate and reach out to, or having nobody pay attention at all?

The changes in just the last decade or two that some of you boomers can see, that even a 36 year old like me can see are shocking.
What changes will my 4 year old see? Will there be any woods or trail for him to even debate about, let alone actually use?

I don't see any solution other than to invite everyone we can find to the party and hope they have a good time.
Even if a few of us get stuck cleaning up, at least there's something left to work on.

[imscotty]

Wow, these are some of the most thoughtful posts I have seen on Whiteblaze. I am in agreement with almost everything stated above.

One factor that could potentially change the trail dynamic is the commercialization of FKT attempts. I realize that sponsorship and book deals are already a significant part of the high profile FKT's, but it would not take too much for this to grow out of hand. Picture runners standing at the top of Springer with camera crews, Nike Logo backdrops and a Gatorade Blimp circling overhead. OK, maybe I have gotten carried away, but personally I would like to see the commercial aspects of this kept off the trail.

I hear you LW, that the real damage comes from wanna be thrus and others who do not understand or perhaps care about LNT. Education and ambassadorship from the experience members of the hiking community are the best defense there, because I also agree it is critical that we introduce the next generation to the wonders of the natural environment.

[imscotty]

Concerning the champagne celebration at the top of Katahdin, I am reluctant to come down hard on Scott for that. I am sure it was brought by someone else and that he probably had very little control over it. I doubt anything meaningful was consumed. But these public postings do create a problem for BSP officials.

BTW, I know I cannot throw stones. I have been known enjoy a few drinks that were against the rules. But when the behavior could negatively effect others, it is time to reign it in.

These are becoming high profile events that are in the public eye. Scott and future FKT holders need to realize that they will become the role models for the behavior of those who admire and come after them. For that reason their actions should be exemplary and conform to a higher standard. I think in the future more discretion is called for.

[Just Bill]

If it makes anyone feel any better...
Climbing started this journey about the time I was a young man, in fact I suppose it was my generation who was running rampant and causing fear.
In that case, the advent of indoor climbing gyms and the explosion of bouldering in general was the impetus of change.
And actually, the issue was a life and death one. Dummies don't belong on the sharp end.

As it was then so it is now... the "big wall climber" or remote wilderness adventurer is still rare.
Commercialization is "wildly out of hand" but basically all that means is that lots of kids sport North Face clothes at the mall or carry a real biner to carry their keys.

The truly committed climbers were able to go one way or the other.

Some pursued the old days, the clean lines, the wilderness trips and the "freedom". They do it for love and not money... they occasionally check in and share.
Somehow, someway, they still seem to find true adventure in wild places despite the "boom".

Some "cashed in", opened climbing gyms, gear shops, outdoor companies, guide services, wrote books, whatever. They sold out.

Or... they found a way to do what they love for a living, to pay the bills, to be productive, to teach others and dedicate their lives to protecting the climbs. They take a 10 spot from some douchebag who wants to "hang out at the gym" and will never set hand to real rock. And they use that cash to help the next generation of die-hards. To lobby, protect, campaign.

Business only respects business.
Politics cost money.
Activism takes time.

There are a lot of ways to sell out.
Doug Thompkins, founder of North Face sold it to start Esprit. Which he sold to save Patagonia. He is the largest private land conservator on earth.
Yvon Choinard continues to do all he can to do business the right way, to lead from within, to protect the community.
They are both dirt bag climbers who never sold out; there are many like them.

Maybe Ultimate Direction is the next.
Maybe that fella in the canoe with Scott who happens to own one of the biggest outdoor companies will write a fat check to the trail.
Maybe a thousand young girls just heard about a girl who beat all the boys and they will sign up for a trip this summer at Jen's company.

All I know is the climbing world once faced a similar crisis of identity and impending disaster; and it turned out pretty damn good.
I hope we can all get off our asses and do the same.

[Water Rat]

Concerning the champagne celebration at the top of Katahdin, I am reluctant to come down hard on Scott for that. I am sure it was brought by someone else and that he probably had very little control over it. I doubt anything meaningful was consumed. But these public postings do create a problem for BSP officials.

BTW, I know I cannot throw stones. I have been known enjoy a few drinks that were against the rules. But when the behavior could negatively effect others, it is time to reign it in.

These are becoming high profile events that are in the public eye. Scott and future FKT holders need to realize that they will become the role models for the behavior of those who admire and come after them. For that reason their actions should be exemplary and conform to a higher standard. I think in the future more discretion is called for.

imscotty - I think this was very eloquent. I don't think anyone has come down on Scott for this... In fact, I think most of us have written it off as more of a poor choice (in light of the letter from BSP to the ATC) and that he most likely did not know better. I also think that the picture of him holding the bottle (alcoholic or non-alcoholic it doesn't matter...it is about the appearance) next to the Katahdin sign says far more and will travel further than any postings on WB.

I also think that rather than cast stones, this is can be used as a teaching moment to get the word out there to all those who do not know better. None of us are perfect, but we should clean up our messes if we want our host (Baxter) to keep allowing us to visit.

Baxter has rolled out the carpet to AT hikers and allows them to hike on in for free (others have to pay to get in and hike), use day packs if they want to for the final miles, use the outhouses, climb the trail, and they even provide this awesome sign up on top of the top of Katahdin. All they ask in return is that the AT hikers abide by a few simple rules. They don't ask for money, they just ask for a little respect while we are visiting.

Baxter used to turn a blind eye to the shenanigans of AT hikers - used to a lot easier when there were fewer of us. But, things got out of hand and the park felt the need to send a letter to let the ATC know that things needed to change. They didn't have to give a warning, but they chose to give the AT community a chance to make some changes. We have the chance to use this as a teaching moment for an "oops." This FKT is bringing a lot more attention to the trail, as do new movies and books... It makes sense to get the word out there to change behaviors (not just the no alcohol rule) so that we can continue to use Katahdin as an endpoint (or, starting point).

The event happened - We can choose to turn it into a positive teaching moment for the next batch of AT hikers. We can use it to educate new hikers about the fact that there are rules that need to be followed if we all want to continue to enjoy what we have. I am sure Baxter officials would like to see some signs that we heard their message and are trying to do something about it.

[Lone Wolf]

highly visible signs need to be posted saying NO ALCOHOL or glass bottles on baxter peak. when you enter the park on foot there's no sign telling you this. back in the day folks would send champagne to daicey pond. the caretakers knew exactly what was in the packages.

[BirdBrain]

If anything positive is to come from this in the future, Scott needs to say something. I agree with assuming minimal culpability on his part. However, his silence will be a rubber stamp for ignoring Baxter's pleas. People emmulate their heros. We will do better next time is a convenient way to put off what needs to be done now. I will continue to assume he was exhausted and was caught up in the moment. However, if he remains silent on this after he has had time to rest and reflect, my opinion is going to change. He is in the spotlight. He sought this spotlight. His actions are a billboard for the way to celebrate on Baxter Peak. It screams for a response.

Say something Scott.

[Lone Wolf]

If anything positive is to come from this in the future, Scott needs to say something. I agree with assuming minimal culpability on his part. However, his silence will be a rubber stamp for ignoring Baxter's pleas. People emmulate their heros. We will do better next time is a convenient way to put off what needs to be done now. I will continue to assume he was exhausted and was caught up in the moment. However, if he remains silent on this after he has had time to rest and reflect, my opinion is going to change. He is in the spotlight. He sought this spotlight. His actions are a billboard for the way to celebrate on Baxter Peak. It screams for a response.

Say something Scott.

how would anybody know "baxters pleas" if no sign or ranger tells you so? Scott owes nobody an apology. there's tons of thru-hiker youtube vids showing drinking and doping on baxter and all up and down the AT

[Odd Man Out]

http://www.sierramtnguides.com/recor...eping-it-real/

Was reading this article and reflecting on the difference the effect FKTs may have on different trails, especially wrt shorter vs longer trails. This thread title doesn't specifically refer to the AT only. I would think that the shorter trails might see more of an impact as many more runners would be inclined to take a week to take on the JMT vs a few months to take on the AT or PCT. As such the AT will probably be less affected than other trails.

I had previously been following a discussion of trail runners in the Grand Canyon. A lot of hikers were really put off by the extreme amount of running traffic they were finding on the trails. It became apparent that the NPS backcountry regulations were ambiguous regarding this activity since it seemed only overnight camping required a permit. It wasn't clear if running overnight required a backcountry permit (as long as you kept moving). I stopped following that discussion so I don't know if that issue was resolved, but use regulations always have to evolve over time and this is no exception. But once again, the impact on the AT is probably less substantial since most of it is less regulated than places like GCNP.

[BirdBrain]

how would anybody know "baxters pleas" if no sign or ranger tells you so? Scott owes nobody an apology. there's tons of thru-hiker youtube vids showing drinking and doping on baxter and all up and down the AT

I said nothing about an apology. I assume he is not the one that thought of this. That does not change the fact that BSP is trying to get a handle on this and this does not help. I assume no malice. His actions or the lack thereof will reveal if my assumptions are correct or not.

[Lone Wolf]

I said nothing about an apology. I assume he is not the one that thought of this. That does not change the fact that BSP is trying to get a handle on this and this does not help. I assume no malice. His actions or the lack thereof will reveal if my assumptions are correct or not.

once again, BSP has failed for not making the no alcohol rule very clear to all park users. they're doing a lousy job "getting a handle on it". he doesn't need to take action

[BirdBrain]

once again, BSP has failed for not making the no alcohol rule very clear to all park users. they're doing a lousy job "getting a handle on it". he doesn't need to take action

I am not going to argue with you beyond this. You are aware of the issue. Burying heads in the sand will only make for pouting children later when their toy is taken away. There is a more responsible course. Whatever. I won't cry when Baxter is taken away from those that think nothing needs to happen.

[Lone Wolf]

I am not going to argue with you beyond this. You are aware of the issue. Burying heads in the sand will only make for pouting children later when their toy is taken away. There is a more responsible course. Whatever. I won't cry when Baxter is taken away from those that think nothing needs to happen.

baxter is cryin' to wrong people. every person that enters the park needs to be aware of the rules. sending a letter to the ATC does nothing. nip the problem as it comes thru the door. very simple. we'll never agree. i'm done