The Negative Effects of FKT's

[rickb]

First off, I don't understand the point of your link, but I think it was to prove that alcohol is not permitted, but I don't think anyone made the argument that this is not a reality...

Secondly, you equate this to doing a 56 in a 55, well then, it truly is a non-issue.

Lastly, I believe you may be wound a little too tightly. Maybe you should just step away from the computer, for at least a week, and...I don't know, go for a run or something...

Seemed crystal clear to me.

BB is not concerned about the actual act of drinking Champagne on the summit on some moral or philosophical level, but he is concerned by the reaction of actual policy makers at BSP.

If you accept that BSP policy makers want to maintain a spirit of wildness, and see Baxter Peak as a place where individuals should quietly connect with the majesty of nature, he has a point.

Rember, it not any individual celebration, heavy influx of climbers on a given day, or minor rules violation that would drive the BSP decision makers to make a decision we don't particularly want-- but the cumulative weight of all of them together.

BB is right to be concerned-- Even if this case is like going 56 in 55 mile zone.

[rickb]

i've been on katahdin 10 times. never once did i see a sign or was given a pamphlet addressing park rules. rangers at daicey pond knew hikers had sent themselves bottles of champagne to take up the mountain.

It was almost a given that Champaigne would flow on Sunday. If that is all it was about, the Rangers could very easily have asked that be left behind.

I think the bigger concern is that someone in power will conclude that Katahdin should be just a place to quietly celebrate the majesty of nature, rather than our own majesty in a party like atmosphere.

[MuddyWaters]

Arriving at a magnificent mountain summit to find it smells of stale spilled alcohol from the ******** spraying champagne all over is a bit disheartening.
What about broken glass from the eventually dropped bottles that is bound to happen?

These are real concerns.

The bigger issue, is it is supposed to be an experience for all who climb the mountain. Hogging the summit, celebrating for an hour, and drinking is not what Baxters view of their mountain is supposed to be.

You got to remember too, this goes on every day for a couple months. It has an impact on others experiences.

[Lone Wolf]

Arriving at a magnificent mountain summit to find it smells of stale spilled alcohol from the ******** spraying champagne all over is a bit disheartening.
What about broken glass from the eventually dropped bottles that is bound to happen?

These are real concerns.

The bigger issue, is it is supposed to be an experience for all who climb the mountain. Hogging the summit, celebrating for an hour, and drinking is not what Baxters view of their mountain is supposed to be.

You got to remember too, this goes on every day for a couple months. It has an impact on others experiences.

and BSP is doing NOTHING about it

[MuddyWaters]

and BSP is doing NOTHING about it

Pretty sure they said they dont have any more manpower to deal with the nonsense, or plans to staff up. Which is why the letter to the ATC is it not?

Heres what they could do: Hire 6 more rangers to deal with AT issues, thats 2 per shift. About $300,000 per year. Each thru hiker pays $300 fee entering Baxter to pay for it.

[Pedaling Fool]

Seemed crystal clear to me.

BB is not concerned about the actual act of drinking Champagne on the summit on some moral or philosophical level, but he is concerned by the reaction of actual policy makers at BSP.

If you accept that BSP policy makers want to maintain a spirit of wildness, and see Baxter Peak as a place where individuals should quietly connect with the majesty of nature, he has a point.

Rember, it not any individual celebration, heavy influx of climbers on a given day, or minor rules violation that would drive the BSP decision makers to make a decision we don't particularly want-- but the cumulative weight of all of them together.

BB is right to be concerned-- Even if this case is like going 56 in 55 mile zone.

This is only an issue because of so many ******** that screw it up for everyone else, just like all the other services that have been stopped along the entirety of the AT. I know of this issue of Baxter wanting to remove the AT, but if that ever happens it will NOT be from this event.

This was a non-event. It's the never-ending problems caused by the countless regular hikers, period.

Look at the history of all the things that have caused certain closures along the AT, such a hikers using private pools, crapping in very public places, getting drunk and rowdy...Remember places like the monastery in New York...They've all been closed down to hikers. Same thing in Baxter, they've released memos talking about this before. That's the problem, not this silly obsessed ranting about SJ's traditional celebratory act...

But you all can keep on harping on this silly theme...It's the internet afterall

[Offshore]

i'd rather see few speed hikers every other year than the thousands of wannabe thru-hikers that flock to georgia every spring creating a mess. the ATC should not promote thru hiking any more. FK timers are not the problem

That's a pretty elitist remark that amounts to "I got mine, so the heck with you." The wannabes have as much right to use the AT and attempt a thru as anyone else, even famous and storied hikers. Every thru started as a wannabe...

[Pedaling Fool]

BTW, if there ever was a reason to split off a topic into another thread it can be found in this thread. This thread started out as a topic for talking about potential negative effects on the AT WRT FKT record attempts. However, it has morphed into a discussion about the negative effects that everyday hikers have on the AT.

Like it or not, this is a fact. This issue of champagne on Katahdin has everything to do with stupid hikers (nothing to do with SJ). If you were honest, you would admit to that fact. Everything else equal, if this happened in a world where hikers were not so irresponsible in such large numbers, this topic would not be a topic.

I propose splitting this thread off and re-naming it:

• The Negative Effects of Dumb Ass Hikers

[Offshore]

Like it or not, this is a fact. This issue of champagne on Katahdin has everything to do with stupid hikers (nothing to do with SJ). If you were honest, you would admit to that fact. Everything else equal, if this happened in a world where hikers were not so irresponsible in such large numbers, this topic would not be a topic.

If you were being honest, the issue of champagne on K has everything to do with Jurek when he is the one, complete with press crew, holding the bottle, drinking from, the bottle, and spraying from the bottle.

Jurek doing this is worse than the average hiker - he's a public figure and is setting avery public example for this misbehavior. I also don't buy the "he didn't know the rules" argument frm SJ's apologists. Jurek had an advance logistics team that is responsible for this type of stuff.

[BirdBrain]

Seemed crystal clear to me.

BB is not concerned about the actual act of drinking Champagne on the summit on some moral or philosophical level, but he is concerned by the reaction of actual policy makers at BSP.

If you accept that BSP policy makers want to maintain a spirit of wildness, and see Baxter Peak as a place where individuals should quietly connect with the majesty of nature, he has a point.

Rember, it not any individual celebration, heavy influx of climbers on a given day, or minor rules violation that would drive the BSP decision makers to make a decision we don't particularly want-- but the cumulative weight of all of them together.

BB is right to be concerned-- Even if this case is like going 56 in 55 mile zone.

Thank you.

By the way, I only commented on this because MuddyWaters was taking flack for stating reality. I felt an obligation to back him. He had this. I could have remained silent. I felt an obligation because I took him to task on another matter a while ago. If I incur the wrath from the likes that may force Baxter's hand in the process, so be it. I now consider my debt paid. Those that don't understand the concept of debts, won't understand what I am saying, let alone what Baxter is saying. I knew that going in when I chose to have MW's back.

[Just Bill]

Have any of you considered that by endlessly debating a non-issue you may eventually build enough mass for it to become one?

[BirdBrain]

Have any of you considered that by endlessly debating a non-issue you may eventually build enough mass for it to become one?

No I do not. A picture paints a thousand words. His picture has been seen by millions. Our words are a drop in the ocean in comparison. Baxter will not be seeing our words on CNN or in USA Today. They, no doubt, have seen the blatant disregard of the rules. Our words are nothing compared with the hoards of well wishers that may choose to emulate his celebration. You exaggerate our influence. If something comes from this (and I doubt anything will) it will not be because of our words. Our words have a small chance of changing the attitudes of those that might cause action by Baxter. We are the ones that read this blather. We are the ones that Baxter is concerned about. From what I am reading, it is just a matter of time.

[BirdBrain]

I have a couple silly questions and then I am putting this thread on ignore. They are rhetorical. Therefore, I am not curious about the answers.

Do you think Baxter is serious?
Do you think they are just going to watch the spike in problems and do nothing?
Do you think the hiking community has an obligation to help assuage Baxter's concerns?
If the answers are yes, no, yes, then how can we help?
I will give you a hint. It ain't through silence.
If the answer is no, yes, no, then enjoy your Baxter free AT. The end is coming.

[Tuckahoe]

What I have a hard time understanding, is the expectation that it is up to the ATC to do something about misbehaving hikers, while it is BSP that is responsible for establishing and enforcing their rules.

[rocketsocks]

I'm sittin' here wondering if the aforementioned issue is an AT/BSP/trail runner/hiker issue, or a cultural/sign of the times issue...not calling a spade a spade, very disconcerting. And I take no responsibility in it's outcome for discussing it, why would ya?

[Wülfgang]

Wow is this really an argument about etOH on Katahdin??

I thought the issue was the popularity of FTKs and their impact on trail culture....

[rocketsocks]

Wow is this really an argument about etOH on Katahdin??

I thought the issue was the popularity of FTKs and their impact on trail culture....

I don't see it as an argument...it's just postin'

Thread: The Negative Effects of FKT's

[rocketsocks]

Wow is this really an argument about etOH on Katahdin??

I thought the issue was the popularity of FTKs and their impact on trail culture....

I don't see it as an argument...it's just postin'

Thread: The Negative Effects of FKT's

Oops, it was specifically mentioned in the thread opener, thus the discussion.


The ATC already has frayed relations with Baxter State Park. Crowds at the summit popping corks of celebratory champagne will only add to those problems. Changes to the BSP regulations for AT hikers may be made that would have a detrimental effect on the entire AT community.

Can anything be done to mitigate this? Should anything be done? I welcome everyone's thoughts and input.

[Driver8]

The problem is, Baxter has drawn a line in the sand already.

They have no additional manpower to devote to AT demands
They have no money to hire additional manpower and no plans to do so
They made it clear that AT hikers are problems for them and they are tired of it, and at their limits of dealing with them.
They want the ATC to do something, but ATC is a gutless, toothless entity concerned with self-preservation (thru promotion and maximizing trail usage) not trail user experience or any hint of wilderness experience. Which is what Baxter is all about....for MAINE residents.

They made it clear if things dont change, they will consider removing the AT from the park

Ok, it seems you're pretty angry about this and you've taken the stand that Baxter can do no wrong. You're free to opt for both of those. Hope you don't expect or require us to join you.

With due respect, you don't give an explanation why the park doesn't take common sense measures to address this alcohol issue that you find so disturbing. A reasonable person might conclude it's not as disturbing an issue for the park as for you.

[Lone Wolf]

Oops, it was specifically mentioned in the thread opener, thus the discussion.


[COLOR=#333333]The ATC already has frayed relations with Baxter State Park.

Can anything be done to mitigate this? Should anything be done? I welcome everyone's thoughts and input.

yeah BSP needs to START enforcing THEIR rules. thousands of bottles of champagne have been uncorked over the years with no fines levied