The Negative Effects of FKT's

[imscotty]

I thought it appropriate to create a separate thread where people could discuss the potentially negative aspects of FKT's, particularly for the AT. FKT's are growing in popularity and no doubt there will be an increasing number of these going forward with an ever increase in media attention.

On the AT I would argue that over most of its length an FKT thru is basically a non-event. Heck, I have people blast pass me all the time, it is of little concern if they are moving faster than most on their way to a 45 day thru-hike. To me the biggest problem is at the end when the circus of supporters, fans, and media all come to a head. This is particularly a problem for a NOBO thru attempt.

The ATC already has frayed relations with Baxter State Park. Crowds at the summit popping corks of celebratory champagne will only add to those problems. Changes to the BSP regulations for AT hikers may be made that would have a detrimental effect on the entire AT community.

Can anything be done to mitigate this? Should anything be done? I welcome everyone's thoughts and input.

[kjbrown]

Not to sound too much of a NOOB but what does FKT stand for?
Thanks and hope you have a laugh
Kevin

[Offshore]

Seems to me that any long term repercussions of the crowds and alcohol at Baxter on the AT community were of either secondary or no importance. FKTs are all about personal glory, the AT was merely a venue. (All of the posts by people acting like Jurek's new BFFs were a little odd, too.)

[Lyle]

Not to sound too much of a NOOB but what does FKT stand for?
Thanks and hope you have a laugh
Kevin

Don't feel bad, I'm not a NOOB, but I was wondering the same thing. Then again, I'm not at all interested in , nor read, the threads about competitive backpacking. I believe that is what FKT is referring to, some division of the record setting crowd.

[peakbagger]

Not really sure if I can support the "swarms of supporters" impact. BSP has day use parking permits in place that effectively limits the size of a crowd on the summit on any given day and the reality is that the summit is "swarmed" daily by dayhikers without trailrunners. Its been this way for going on 10 plus years since parking restrictions kicked in. Previous to the parking permit system, they just closed parking lots and told folks to hike elsewhere. Given the remoteness of the park and the need to lug media gear up to the summit and restrictions on day hikers, I don't see much of a change. Even on a Labor Day weekend, just avoid from 11 to 1 PM on the summit and there aren't many folks up there in off hours. The great thing with BSP is Baxter peak can be crowded with its approach trails and solitude it available just a short hike away on Hamlin or the Howe Peaks or any number of equally nice places to hike (like the Traveler Loop, Doubletop, the Brothers, Coe and OJI so name a few). BSP has to deal with publicity carefully, visitor use appears to have peaked a few years ago and with the exception of peak weekends, a lot of the park is operating less than full on a consistent basis which impacts the cash available to hire full time and seasonal staff. Thus they need responsible media publicity to keep the bookings up. I expect they appreciate the big surge in SOBO hikes as it filled in a slow part of the summer season and allows them to pull in staff earlier (most visitors have the good sense to steer clear of BSP prior to mid July due to the bugs).

The impact of a trail runner going for a FKT is going to be far less than a book or a movie. BSP has pretty well laid out their issues with ATC and ATC has started implementing things to reduce impact of thru hikers on the park. BSP has the upper hand and all they need to do is enforce their rules in place and deal with those who ignore the rules more aggressively. I expect well wishers were turned back at the Togue Pond gate the day Scott made his run up the summit.

Luckily the NPS has been somewhat aggressive in the past in preventing large scale, ironman and trail races centered around the AT. Occasionally some promoter sneaks one in but most of the time, they get stopped in their tracks and move elsewhere. FKT attempts are generally individuals far less obtrusive.

The biggest impact of trail runners is what I and others have observed in the Whites that some tend to avoid the hardened trail bed and run in the soft recovering alpine vegetation to either side of the main trail to a far greater extent than most hikers. This is becoming quite apparent in the whites specifically on the Franconia Ridge alpine zone which now has a distinct parallel track outside the scree walls in places. The rational is that the trails are crowded by "slow pokes" and the runners need to pass frequently but my and others observations are that they seem to stick to the "soft" track no matter what the traffic is. During a recent presi traverse a friend and I kept informal track of off trail hikers and runners and the runners were the overwhelming majority.

There is also an ongoing debate on the proper equipment carried by many trail runners. NH Fish and Game promotes the ten essentials as being required gear for all folks entering the backcountry and many trail runners ignore this list. Effectively their rational appears to be their abilities are apparently superior to the general hiker population and thus are far more able to survive an unplanned accident or night out. With competitive runners supported by teams, this is not an issue but it does encourage others without a support team to emulate them. I encounter trailrunners frequently in the whites and generally the only gear carried is a hydration pack with possibly enough space for a long sleeve top, a wallet and some sports nutrition. Most do not have support teams so they are basically on their own or expect that stranger will come to their aid.

Another somewhat more minor complaint is the bad habit of throwing away packaging from various sports supplements (like GU packs). Luckily this seems to be a small minority of runners but nevertheless seems to occur. Of course newby slob hikers leave a fair share of trash and I will take the impact of typical trail runner over a typical church/youth group anytime.

[Just Bill]

One of the core principals of setting an FKT is :http://fastestknowntime.proboards.co.../19/read-first

How do you establish a speed record?
Buzz Burrell has proposed 3 common sense guidelines:

• Announce your intentions in advance. Like a true gentleman, pay your respects to those who came before you, and tell them what you intend to attempt and when.
• Be an open book. Invite anyone to come and watch or, better yet, participate. This makes your effort more fun and any result more believable.
• Record your event. Write down everything immediately upon completion. Memory doesn't count.

These three rules do not "prove" you have done anything. They just make it easier for a good person to believe you.

So perhaps we should have some perspective overall...
These events are born of the running world, shaped by them, and were not necessarily intended to spill over into our little hiking land. Much like us, they were a small underground fringe portion of a fringe sport with little need for self-examination or responsibility to the world around them.

Regarding Sai Jurek in particular.. The fella making the above statement, Buzz Burrell, is deeply involved with Scott on many levels.
Publically in his professional relationship with Ultimate Direction, privately only they can say.
The fella whose website this information appears, Peter Bakwin- owner of Fastest Known Time, is also as intimately involved on many levels with Scott and Ultimate Direction as well.

So per the rules this fella lives by, works with, and is involved in on many levels... he couldn't have done any better nor been more gentlemanly by those standards.

And... this is his first long distance hike. And we all know no matter how much you prepare, read, or educate yourself; none of us is truly prepared for what we find on the trail.

On our side of the fence... Horton may have got things rolling but I think most if not all follow Scott Williamson.
The unsupported side of things has no less honor or sense of fair play.

The rules:
Walk into and out of resupply towns to purchase or pick up prepacked and mailed supplies.
Hike as a backpacker, carrying all food and equipment between resupply towns.
Follow the official (trail) route, no detours, road walks or alternates of any kind.
Do not have anyone follow, or provide support in a prearranged manner.
Do not get into a vehicle for any reason during the attempt.
Honestly and thoroughly document the attempt.
Practice Leave-No-Trace ethics

If there is a difference it is a subtle one, but perhaps truly significant.
Like anything stated in the Language of the Heart... the very legally stated but wholly inadequate "Leave No Trace" (TM) is added to the "rules" on our side of this debate. In fact the very addition of the word "ethics" is a powerful statement. The very core of that code of conduct.

What that really says in the heart and soul of the likes of a Williamson, Kirk, or Anderson is that if you plan to succeed you better love the trail and hold it in the highest respect possible, even put this ethical choice above your hike. I think this rule is clearly and boldly emblazoned on Mrs. Davis as well, so much so that it seems to radiate right from her core. If folks wonder why a hiker loves Jen, it's fairly simple- hikers love the trail and so does she.

Perhaps the opportunity exists for someone so deeply involved in the history and present state of the sports to shape the future.
You have a fella very intimately involved in the roots, rules, and honor present in FKT pursuits. Who followed those rules to to a "T"
One who has just completed his first long distance hike.
A very well respected athlete who can take his experience back to the running community, as well as begin to find a place in ours.

I think perhaps you make the compelling argument against "full transparency" or more specifically; live tracking.
If the ethics of the hiker are to enter the mix; perhaps the trail should be put first, put above the record.

A gps unit may be used for verification after the fact, perhaps even in the interest of sponsorship and promotion the company involved could even gain some measure of publicity by verifying the track and posting delayed updates. Instead of live tracking by Delorme, you could have "Verified by Delorme". (on that note I also claim "Spot Checked"- TM Town's End) In fact, Delorme would have looked a hell of a lot better in this situation as well if they avoided live tracking.

Even an ametuer though could "turn in thier track", photos, and other documentary evidence after the hike. Buzz's rules were written before the existence of such devices, it would be shortsighted to adopt them so fully in all cases. To demand their use is to discredit the honor of every participant, or exclude those who cannot afford to maintain an account.

The only good reason for a live track is the guidelines as they currently exist in the FKT community.
Though I believe they clash with the Leave no Trace guidelines for higher profile events, and it may in fact be irresponsible to use them.
My personal view- no harm, no foul... However some have made the reasonable statement that a certain park could easily make an example out of our new friend. Or even worse, choose to call it the straw that breaks the camels back and alter the trail forever. This is perhaps extreme, but imagine in a year or two, when some who have seen this effort change direction and commit to an attempt the 10 ring circuses that could occur each season as well meaning folks inspired by their hero descend on the trail.

It was less than a decade ago that the only means to present even a photo of your hike involved carrying your film out, mailing it home, developing it and perhaps having it published in a magazine or sent in to Peter Bakwin along with your journal to prove your accomplishments. Imagine what will exist a decade from now... a personal live feed drone with Satellite link up? Nobody wants that, but it is easy to see that and more occurring.

So as our sports merge and overlap, perhaps we can each come out better for it.
If your presence on the trail has the potential to impact it- leave no trace.
Post your results after the fact, pretend the technology does not exist.
The only thing you lose in the process is self-promotion.
And if self promotion is higher on your list of values than the trail you hike... likely things won't go to well for you on the trail.

I for one without debate- 100% give Scott a pass.
It is unfair to hold him to a hikers standard that does not exist in the FKT rules of the running community.
What I would ask, if I could, would be for Scott to take 100% responsibility for the future of such attempts.
To adopt and promote the trail first and foremost.

I cannot begin to say enough about the honor and integrity of the running community at large, nor about Scott in particular. I don't make any statements to take anything away from him, if anything, it is the respect that I have for him and his accomplishments that put him in a unique position to make a change. For both groups to come together in mutual respect and share in protecting the trail we both enjoy.

[imscotty]

Not to sound too much of a NOOB but what does FKT stand for?
Thanks and hope you have a laugh
Kevin

FKT = Fastest Known Time.

If you Google the term you will find various websites dedicated to tracking FKT's, discussing FKT's, and so on.

[Wülfgang]

I touched on this in another thread (the one where POSTHOLER proposed a hiker rating system), and I think the same principles apply here.

I think it's great from a purely athletic standpoint that people both attempt and keep an official record of FKTs. The problem I personally have with them is they tend to get glorified in the hiker media (local papers, sports mags, WB, etc), and overshadow what long distance hiking is all about---which is really HYOH.

Postholer's proposed "rating" system may have only been for fun, but quantifying the entirety of a hike---not just one aspect like weight or distance---is a disingenuous exercise at best and an insulting, self-aggrandizing exercise at worst. What happens is the faster hikers tend to get put on a pedestal and everyone else is just lumped together as common trail folk.

The other problem which Bill touched on is that FTKs are really a merging of both a sport and an activity: ultra-running and long-distance hiking. This can present some environmental problems like bifurcated trails and more litter, as well as create a rift between the hikers and runners. I see the same thing here in CO between mountain bikers and hikers. There is a bit of tension and the faster party always seems to feel they have the right-of-way.

Overall guys like Scott Jurek are a very tiny minority on the trail---they just receive a disproportionate amount of attention. Not to take anything away from his feat or other FTKs---that was an incredible achievement by any metric---I just hope the new generation of ultra-runners do not become simply regarded as "elite" thru-hikers. I strongly feel hikers should not be "ranked" in any way, shape, or form. This is not the spirit of hiking and backpacking and ultra-runners, while hikers of sorts, are a separate entity pursuing athletic personal glory.

[Lone Wolf]

I thought it appropriate to create a separate thread where people could discuss the potentially negative aspects of FKT's, particularly for the AT. FKT's are growing in popularity and no doubt there will be an increasing number of these going forward with an ever increase in media attention.

On the AT I would argue that over most of its length an FKT thru is basically a non-event. Heck, I have people blast pass me all the time, it is of little concern if they are moving faster than most on their way to a 45 day thru-hike. To me the biggest problem is at the end when the circus of supporters, fans, and media all come to a head. This is particularly a problem for a NOBO thru attempt.

The ATC already has frayed relations with Baxter State Park. Crowds at the summit popping corks of celebratory champagne will only add to those problems. Changes to the BSP regulations for AT hikers may be made that would have a detrimental effect on the entire AT community.

Can anything be done to mitigate this? Should anything be done? I welcome everyone's thoughts and input.

i'd rather see few speed hikers every other year than the thousands of wannabe thru-hikers that flock to georgia every spring creating a mess. the ATC should not promote thru hiking any more. FK timers are not the problem

[Tuckahoe]

All I can seem to muster regarding the topic is... meh.

I just can not see how the speed at which an individual traverses the AT has a negative impact. And it seems the issue is not the speed, but rather the behavior of folks that runs counter to the established rules of federal or state agencies responsible for the administration of sections of the trail. In turn bad behavior is not determined by whether one hikes fast or slow, thru-hikes, section hikes, or day hikes.

And as far as negative impact, do not expect much from the ATC as it is a coordinating and promotional body and not tasked with regulation and enforcement. That rests wholly on the shoulders of federal and state agencies.

[Wyoming]

i'd rather see few speed hikers every other year than the thousands of wannabe thru-hikers that flock to georgia every spring creating a mess. the ATC should not promote thru hiking any more. FK timers are not the problem

I think Lone Wolf hits the nail on the head here. The negative effects on the AT or PCT from FKT attempts are inconsequential in comparison to those presented by thru hikers and the activities which have built up around them.

The media, the outdoor gear companies, and especially the hiking community are contributing greatly to these negative thru hiker effects. The vast crush of wannabe thru hikers in Georgia and southern CA in the spring are creating havoc in terms of overuse, litter, unsocial behavior and so on. A large percentage of thru hikers have been trained or have come to think of themselves as something special and that they are doing something praiseworthy. The way many behave while at camping areas is atrocious in its lack of consideration to other hikers who are not part of their special breed. Examples of this are dope smoking, drinking, coming into camp after dark, thinking the shelters were built for them, etc. We are all familiar with these issues.

Perhaps the biggest contributor to the problem in my opinion are the Trail Angels. I fundamentally object to this activity for many reasons. There could hardly be a more effective way to make a bunch of people think they are special than to be giving them free food, supplies and transportation. There are so many negative aspects of this activity that I won't even try go over them all, but the bottom line is that it just should not be happening. It is a disruption and degradation of a real wilderness hiking experience and it has grown to such an extent that the community should start actively discouraging the folks who have been doing this. It is out of control. To me it has gone from something which I felt uncomfortable with a decade ago to something I now think of as a form of cancer. The PCT is especially being degraded from what kind of hike it used to be by the extensive amounts of water caching being done as it is encouraging hikers to be out there whom have no business being there yet due to their lack of expertise - the PCT after all was considered a step up from the AT because you had to be able to take care of yourself and know what you were doing.

Kind of a rant and I apologize for that, but I think the entire premise of the OP was backwards in general. If we are going to work on 'fixing' something let's work on what is broke the worst first.

[gsingjane]

I feel like Scotty has sort of put his digital finger on something that does make me a bit uneasy about this... maybe I am just an aging and slow wuss but ... certainly in my years on the trail, I have noticed a shift, that only seems to be becoming more pronounced, towards viewing long-distance hiking as more like an extreme sport than a hobby. It feels like the focus is more and more on making the greatest number of miles possible, in the shortest amount of time, with the lightest possible pack. Things feel more competitive every year.

I guess part of this is, the number of people entering backpacking and ld hiking out of traditional things like Scouts, is going way down. The idea of "get out in nature with your cast-iron pan and your bird book" is antiquated in the extreme. Whereas, the popularity of things like Tough Mudders and Badwater and other super-extreme events, is going way up. I know several people who are now being called to ld hiking, coming out of doing ultra's, and certainly not of the "sing around the campfire" brigade.

Of course everybody has the total right to hike his or her own hike, as long as it doesn't unduly impinge on other hikers or the trail itself. It shouldn't matter one iota to me whether somebody is out there because they want to mash miles or because they want to identify trees. I guess it's like anything else that's changing, though, it's just hard not to be a bit wistful for what now seems a simpler time.

Jane in CT

[hikernutcasey]

I think Lone Wolf hits the nail on the head here. The negative effects on the AT or PCT from FKT attempts are inconsequential in comparison to those presented by thru hikers and the activities which have built up around them.

The media, the outdoor gear companies, and especially the hiking community are contributing greatly to these negative thru hiker effects. The vast crush of wannabe thru hikers in Georgia and southern CA in the spring are creating havoc in terms of overuse, litter, unsocial behavior and so on. A large percentage of thru hikers have been trained or have come to think of themselves as something special and that they are doing something praiseworthy. The way many behave while at camping areas is atrocious in its lack of consideration to other hikers who are not part of their special breed. Examples of this are dope smoking, drinking, coming into camp after dark, thinking the shelters were built for them, etc. We are all familiar with these issues.

Perhaps the biggest contributor to the problem in my opinion are the Trail Angels. I fundamentally object to this activity for many reasons. There could hardly be a more effective way to make a bunch of people think they are special than to be giving them free food, supplies and transportation. There are so many negative aspects of this activity that I won't even try go over them all, but the bottom line is that it just should not be happening. It is a disruption and degradation of a real wilderness hiking experience and it has grown to such an extent that the community should start actively discouraging the folks who have been doing this. It is out of control. To me it has gone from something which I felt uncomfortable with a decade ago to something I now think of as a form of cancer. The PCT is especially being degraded from what kind of hike it used to be by the extensive amounts of water caching being done as it is encouraging hikers to be out there whom have no business being there yet due to their lack of expertise - the PCT after all was considered a step up from the AT because you had to be able to take care of yourself and know what you were doing.

Kind of a rant and I apologize for that, but I think the entire premise of the OP was backwards in general. If we are going to work on 'fixing' something let's work on what is broke the worst first.

Well said. One of the main draws for me to get out in the woods is to get away from people and have that wilderness experience. With the extraordinary number of aspiring thru hikers each year, the insane amount of trail magic and the growing number of hostels the AT is becoming less and less remote and "wild" with every passing year.

I have no problem whatsoever with FKT attempts as long as they respect the trail and other hikers they meet along the way.

[Just Bill]

http://www.sierramtnguides.com/recor...eping-it-real/

[rocketsocks]

Seems to me that any long term repercussions of the crowds and alcohol at Baxter on the AT community were of either secondary or no importance. FKTs are all about personal glory, the AT was merely a venue. (All of the posts by people acting like Jurek's new BFFs were a little odd, too.)

I always find this a little odd as well.

I for one without debate- 100% give Scott a pass.
It is unfair to hold him to a hikers standard that does not exist in the FKT rules of the running community.
What I would ask, if I could, would be for Scott to take 100% responsibility for the future of such attempts.
To adopt and promote the trail first and foremost.

Agree, I think it comes with the job...and lets not kid ourselves, it is a job.

i'd rather see few speed hikers every other year than the thousands of wannabe thru-hikers that flock to georgia every spring creating a mess. the ATC should not promote thru hiking any more. FK timers are not the problem

I've never wanted to live the nomadic lifestyle of trail life, but for thems that do, I get it...I do. But your right, somthing has to change, it's not the same as 30 years ago, the numbers have increased to levels that have to be considered. This is nothing more than a self serving activity of "all in one shot" known as a thru-hike.

I feel like Scotty has sort of put his digital finger on something that does make me a bit uneasy about this... maybe I am just an aging and slow wuss but ... certainly in my years on the trail, I have noticed a shift, that only seems to be becoming more pronounced, towards viewing long-distance hiking as more like an extreme sport than a hobby. It feels like the focus is more and more on making the greatest number of miles possible, in the shortest amount of time, with the lightest possible pack. Things feel more competitive every year.


Jane in CT

Your not alone, many of us don't care to hike in that style. And while we may follow along, we've a watchful eye on the evolution of the sport.


I thought at first sight this thread was gonna be about the toll a timed distance hike takes on the body (cause that's where my head has been the last couple days following Scoots hike. But I see now it's going another way...So I'll just say this about that, an d with regard to his finish.

paste copy/paste from another thread.

I don't even know if it's alcohol at this point, could've been sprite poured in a old korbel bottle left by some inconsiderate person and Mentos. But if it were the other, write him a ticket, pay the fine, give a heart felt apology. These are the rules, they are in place for everyone to follow for a reason, much as we may disagree or want to look away...these are the rules, follow da rules, it ain't that hard.

...and if ya can't follow the rules, don't publish a photo and throw it in the mans face, not real bright.~RS

I suppose we could also hash out the compaction of the trail bed by a weighted hiker vs pounding footsteps of a runner as well, that should take a few pages, couple days and some study's.

[rocketsocks]

http://www.sierramtnguides.com/recor...eping-it-real/

The title of FKT recipient gives me about as much interest as a lady pullin' down her girdle...while the feat is monumental.


girdle.jpg

[Wülfgang]

http://www.sierramtnguides.com/recor...eping-it-real/

Great article with some salient points.

What I see happening---mainly in the hiker media---is a growing attitude that further-faster-lighter is better-better-better. With the blossoming sport of ultra-running and FKTs it adds to the dogma that the fastest and lightest are the standard to which all others are compared to, and I hate that. Sponsorship, documentaries, books, and monster threads full of nut-huggers all add to the hype.

I think as avid hikers we need to strongly resist glorifying any one type of hiker; or worse yet start ranking them.

[Just Bill]

Great article with some salient points.

What I see happening---mainly in the hiker media---is a growing attitude that further-faster-lighter is better-better-better. With the blossoming sport of ultra-running and FKTs it adds to the dogma that the fastest and lightest are the standard to which all others are compared to, and I hate that. Sponsorship, documentaries, books, and monster threads full of nut-huggers all add to the hype.

I think as avid hikers we need to strongly resist glorifying any one type of hiker; or worse yet start ranking them.

As a small aside... Not all are pushing things on established trails, but pushing to re-establish or pursue some of what is lost in the changing experience of LD hiking.

The fella who coined "further-faster-lighter" is spreading a slightly different message these days. Roughly: shorter, deeper, cleaner.
Every pendulum has to swing to either extreme before finding a better center.

http://thetrailshow.com/the-trail-show-36-the-kchbr/

[Lyle]

i'd rather see few speed hikers every other year than the thousands of wannabe thru-hikers that flock to georgia every spring creating a mess. the ATC should not promote thru hiking any more. FK timers are not the problem

Is that the purpose of the AT? To provide, through volunteer efforts. a vehicle for record setters. Or was the AT intended to allow the masses to go out and enjoy the "Wilderness". If the latter, than promoting through hiking and section hiking is much more within the intended scope than to sanction or even encourage competitive hiking events.

[rocketsocks]

As a small aside... Not all are pushing things on established trails, but pushing to re-establish or pursue some of what is lost in the changing experience of LD hiking.

The fella who coined "further-faster-lighter" is spreading a slightly different message these days. Roughly: shorter, deeper, cleaner.
Every pendulum has to swing to either extreme before finding a better center.

http://thetrailshow.com/the-trail-show-36-the-kchbr/

Bill, early on in the other thread, perhaps the Jeoy Champs thread, you eleuded to something else was going on behind the sceenes in the trail running world. I couldn't find it the other day while looking and was wondering if you ever further addressed that...just curious.