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  1. #81
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    @rickb,

    I agree that using the same registration system will not work for thru's, but not for the reasons you list. There is no way a thru will be able to predict when they will be at the Hunt 4 or 5 months in advance. That is what they would need to do in order to use the system that everyone else uses. Even the most disorganized thru will grasp that fact. They will not waste their money. Even if they did try to guess on a date, they would only be reserving at the bottom of the Hunt. There are many other places to sleep in the park that is nowhere near the Hunt. If thru's ever had to reserve the same way as everyone else did, that process might be enough to get through even the thickest skull the fact that BSP has been catering to thru's. But to the larger point, I agree that it will not work. It might be thrust upon them because of this present conflict. If it is, the end of Katahdin as the terminus will soon follow, because very few thru's will meet their schedule. That will make the "I hate BSP" crowd happy, but no one else. Again, I agree that using the normal permit system will not work. A permit system might work. However, it would have to be a special one just for thru's. I can see that happening. BSP already has special allowances for thru's. It is logical they would continue to be generous in spite of the "I hate BSP" group.
    Last edited by BirdBrain; 09-02-2015 at 20:35.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  2. #82

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    Permits? Can't I use a hall pass? Hey, I'm not going to be sent to the principal's office again, am I? Boy did that hurt the last time.


    Datto

  3. #83

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    You can most certainly meet a date at BSP set months in advance.
    All it takes is a brain, and possibly a bus ticket if running behind. Err on side of conservative.

    So its not unbroken trip. Wah, wah, wah
    Most are interrupted anyway, interrupted for the weekend in dc, the week in nyc, the trip home for wedding, etc.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 09-02-2015 at 20:46.

  4. #84

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    By the way, it's not so much the "I hate BSP" group, it's the complete dislike and bumbling ineptness of the Stauffenwhipple running the show at BSP.

    Baxter State Park is beautiful. That's not the issue.


    Datto

  5. #85
    Registered User handlebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sly View Post
    No. Bissell answers to the Baxter State Park Authority which is made of the Maine Attorney General, the Commissioner of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife and the Director of the Maine Forest Service (Authority Chair)
    At least 2 of these 3 are appointed by the Maine Governor.
    Handlebar
    GA-ME 06; PCT 08; CDT 10,11,12; ALT 11; MSPA 12; CT 13; Sheltowee 14; AZT 14, 15; LT 15;FT 16;NCT-NY&PA 16; GET 17-18

  6. #86

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    Anyone thinking a permitting system is actually going to work on any large scale with thru-hikers is probably in wishful thinking dreamland. I did complete the permits on my AT thru-hike and later all the permits when I hked the PCT but I was a very small minority of hikers who did.

    I almost didn't complete the Shennandoah permits on my AT thru-hike because the permits were so ridiculously complex but it just so happen I had the time that day. On the PCT the horse ranger in Yosemite was completely amazed when Pearson and I were asked for permits along the trail and non-chalantly handed the permits to the ranger within five seconds. That horse ranger was even more amazed that our papers were in zee complete order. I think the ranger was relieved he wasn't going to have to bundle us up and take us to the cooler for 30 days of gulag punishment.

    On the AT at one particular spot, a group of us thru-hikers had arrived at a spot along the Trail and there was a sign up that said to make sure to camp at least 100 feet away from the nearby water source. So all of us did that and double checked each camp was at least 100' or more. The next morning a ranger showed up and started handing out "citations" to some of the hikers. When it was pointed out to the ranger that all the camps were more than 100' away from the water source, the ranger smiled widely and stated the law had been changed the previous day and the distance was now 150' and continuted handing out citations. I was in the shelter overnight and had woke up late and stumbled out to see what the hubub was about. Pretty much ever single citation was torn up in pieces and thrown in the chest of the ranger. The ranger then retrieved his citation book and began to write additional citations for something like disrespecting a ranger. By that time, most of the thru-hikers were packing up and heading out and ignoring the guy which then caused the ranger to start issuing even more citations for what sounded like an infraction of ignoring a ranger. All I could think of was that I'd hoped the ranger didn't have his one bullet in his duly located upper left pocket because that ranger was having one serious unnecessary meltdown.

    I ddn't see much of thru-hikers on the AT damaging property or soiling the coutryside. Pretty much every thru-hiker I saw was resectful of the Trail. The Barney Fifes, that was a different matter but only on a very few occasions.


    Datto

  7. #87

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    Forgot to mention -- just about the prettiest ranger I'd ever seen stopped me on the very north side of Shennandoah National Park and asked me questions for half and hour. I had been in a big hurry to that point on that day but after she got all of her questions done I'd ask her if she had any more questions I could help her with. She said no and I waited a few seconds and then said, "maybe we could make up some questions for you to ask me?" She laughed and told me to have a good hike.


    Datto

  8. #88
    Registered User handlebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ aka Teej View Post
    ...there is serious pressure on Jensen to just end Baxter's relationship with the AT.
    Teej, Who is placing the serious pressure on Jensen?
    Handlebar
    GA-ME 06; PCT 08; CDT 10,11,12; ALT 11; MSPA 12; CT 13; Sheltowee 14; AZT 14, 15; LT 15;FT 16;NCT-NY&PA 16; GET 17-18

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by handlebar View Post
    Teej, Who is placing the serious pressure on Jensen?
    Regardless of where the pressure is coming from, it should mean something that Bissell is resisting. With the rhetoric spewed at him, I am not so sure I would resist. This is what I don't grasp. BSP is doing good things for thru's. They don't desire to stop doing those good things. They just want to address a few concerns. They are thanked with sarcastic and hateful statements. Yes Bissell is not the most gifted speaker. That does not nullify the realities of growing concerns that need to be addressed. Bashing the authorities is not a constructive end to those concerns.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  10. #90

    Default The solution

    It just dawned on me. Huh. The solution to this conflict.

    Bissell stays in his office watching Days Of Our Ranger Lives on television as usual and avoids contact with humans.

    Instead, the prettest rangers are sent out to deal with the AT hikers in Baxter State Park. I can almost guarantee full and upright compliance with any requests from those kind of rangers.

    Problem solves, conflict avoided.

    See, that's why they pay me the big bucks.


    Datto

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdBrain View Post
    Regardless of where the pressure is coming from, it should mean something that Bissell is resisting. With the rhetoric spewed at him, I am not so sure I would resist. This is what I don't grasp. BSP is doing good things for thru's. They don't desire to stop doing those good things. They just want to address a few concerns. They are thanked with sarcastic and hateful statements. Yes Bissell is not the most gifted speaker. That does not nullify the realities of growing concerns that need to be addressed. Bashing the authorities is not a constructive end to those concerns.
    Bissel wants the ATC and NPS to get off their arses and do something to limit the thruhikers.

    Hetes the rub....if you read the trails act, it specifies a goal that the AT be kept as free of regulation as possible, and that the first step in solving problems is education....

    You can send a chimp to college, its still a chimp.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdBrain View Post
    Regardless of where the pressure is coming from, it should mean something that Bissell is resisting. With the rhetoric spewed at him, I am not so sure I would resist. This is what I don't grasp. BSP is doing good things for thru's. They don't desire to stop doing those good things. They just want to address a few concerns. They are thanked with sarcastic and hateful statements. Yes Bissell is not the most gifted speaker. That does not nullify the realities of growing concerns that need to be addressed. Bashing the authorities is not a constructive end to those concerns.
    he shoulda been "zero tolerance" all these years with the thru hikers. he punked out targeting Scott. period

  13. #93
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    Maybe Bissell felt punked by Scott's photo of champagne bubbles flying -- posted to 160,000 admiring fans. If I were in charge of that place I know I'd feel an urge to respond "in kind."

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    Maybe Bissell felt punked by Scott's photo of champagne bubbles flying -- posted to 160,000 admiring fans. If I were in charge of that place I know I'd feel an urge to respond "in kind."
    he shoulda kept his punk rangers in line and told them NO alcohol. period. BSP messed up

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Bissel wants the ATC and NPS to get off their arses and do something to limit the thruhikers.

    Hetes the rub....if you read the trails act, it specifies a goal that the AT be kept as free of regulation as possible, and that the first step in solving problems is education....

    You can send a chimp to college, its still a chimp.
    I am with you on that. Education is preferred to regulation. However, if people will not be educated, regulation will come. We should desire freedom from regulation. That freedom is granted to a people willing to self police. If they are shown to be trustworthy in that regard, regulation will be slower in coming. I do not prefer the heavy hand of a power showing who is tougher. I prefer to comply without that heavy hand. I prefer freedom. Some prefer to test the will of those in power. There is an easier path. We should do all we can to assuage the concerns of those that have the ability to make things complicated. Puffing out your chest at an authority does not end well for all those involved. I don't want a fight. There is no need for a fight. Educate yourselves. Seek information. Comply with regulations. I am not a 2 year old that needs a spanking. I can find out what is expected of me and comply. The rules are not that unreasonable and tough to obey.
    Last edited by BirdBrain; 09-02-2015 at 22:15.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  16. #96

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    All seriousness aside, Bissell should just find some ranger candidates who are skilled at dealing with the public, haven't yet been indoctrinated with Gubbenweiner attitudes and then have those specific ranger people assigned to specifically handle this situation and all other dealings with the public en masse as well as the media. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to have opened up a 55 gallon drum of Gubbenweiner against AT hikers in the global media.


    Datto

  17. #97
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    no ignore user function on this forum?

  18. #98
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    I'm an engineer, so I'm usually the one say "Do the math." If 1000 hikers finish the AT every year, and they finish over a window of 60 days, that's about 16 per day. If each AT hiker spends an hour on the summit, and there is about a 4 hour daily window on the summit, considering up and down times, that's 4 thru-hikers per hour. If he thinks 200 hikers at one time is a problem, and is caused by thrus, that would mean 800 per day, or 48,000 thru hikers per year. I suspect this jack hole is exaggerating for dramatic effect.
    "Waning Gibbous" would be a great trail name.

  19. #99
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    If Bissell and Jurek were never born or if they both died today, it would not change certain realities. There are real growing concerns that have to do with those that walk into BSP. Those concerns must be and will be addressed. We can play a part in having favorable outcomes or we can vomit irrelevant bile. I believe the reason some stir the pot is because they don't want solutions. They either have an axe to grind or want to act lawlessly.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobTheBuilder View Post
    I'm an engineer, so I'm usually the one say "Do the math." If 1000 hikers finish the AT every year, and they finish over a window of 60 days, that's about 16 per day. If each AT hiker spends an hour on the summit, and there is about a 4 hour daily window on the summit, considering up and down times, that's 4 thru-hikers per hour. If he thinks 200 hikers at one time is a problem, and is caused by thrus, that would mean 800 per day, or 48,000 thru hikers per year. I suspect this jack hole is exaggerating for dramatic effect.
    Engineers are taught to be careful and clear about their assumptions. You appear to assume that those hiker visits would be evenly distributed over the course of the day (or season, for that matter.) In any case, I think Bissell's lament is that thru-hikers take a disproportionate share of BSP staff resources -- 3% of the park's population and 20% of the staff's effort, if I recall his "lament" correctly.

    Now I know that it's not uncommon to have huge crowds on several famous AT summits (eg. in the White Mountains or in the Smokies) but I suspect the entourage that followed Scott up to the summit was a bit of culture shock to BSP staff. I'm not certain of that -- it's been a long time since I've been there.

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