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  1. #41
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    I scratch my head at some of the stuff posted here. It would not break my heart if every shelter was torn down. I don't need them. However, why does anyone care what someone else does with their tent? If it takes up room that others need, I get the complaint. Why is someone else's method criticized? If it does damage, I get that. A tent in a shelter is a bit odd. But who is it hurting if the space is there? I think it is weird to sleep outside a tent. You won't see me making sarcastic statements about that choice. It is just a choice. There are tons of right ways to do things. The OP is sseeking to not do the wrong thing. Just because suggestions don't line up perfectly with the way someone else does it, that does not make it stupid.

    But ya'. Do it if you want, if it is legal where you are. Don't do it at the expense of others. Don't use screws to hold it down. A free standing tent works best and has a footprint not much larger than the sleeping bag. Ignore people that have input that just want to say their way is great and your way is stupid. HYOH. Have fun.
    Last edited by BirdBrain; 09-18-2015 at 16:22.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  2. #42
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    Double post disease.
    Last edited by BirdBrain; 09-18-2015 at 16:05.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    On state lands. No authority on nps administered land, or private like the Nature Conservancy.
    Arent the only ones on state land the 3 in Bear/Harriman state park?

    I dont know whats sadder , that people do it, or that someone felt they had to write a rule against it. My solo inner that is 24" wide could be construed as a "tent" by some.

    Dope smoking is illegal in most places too. You know how well that works out.
    That people do it - is a headscratcher. The rules tend to get written once there's a problem. The Catskills and Adirondacks have had problems in the past. I was at a trailhead in the Catskills once when there was a whole bevy of rangers, state police, and sheriff's deputies arresting a bunch of squatters. The squatters didn't even look like desperate people. They just seemed to think it would be cool to set up a private hunting camp on state land. The ranger was telling me that they'd built their own shelter (with a wood stove, no less) and just moved in for the season. Incredible that they thought they'd get away with it.

    Morgan Stewart is on state land (Depot Hill Multiple Use Area), if memory serves. You're right that Wildcat and Telephone Pioneers are Federal. If I recall correctly, RPH and Wiley have easements on private land, but there may have been a Federal purchase since I last checked. Private land, of course, follows the landowner's preferences. Plus, "don't be an idiot." We've lost access to at least one shelter in the Helderbergs because the landowner on the approach trail revoked an easement. The shelter itself is on state land, but now there's no trail that gets there.

    I wouldn't call your solo bivy a tent unless I'm having an extraordinarily bad day. (And for me, no day on the trail is an extraordinarily bad day, so you needn't worry on my account.)

    Some people care about staying legal. (Including the moderators on this site, so I don't discuss safety meetings on WB.)

    There are dozens and dozens of shelters on other trails in NY, and some of the people on this site use them.

    Oh... another caveat. In the Adirondack and Catskill Parks, the DEC interprets the "camp at least 150 feet from trail or water" rule as applying to shelters. The inside of the shelter is a designated camping location. The outside is not. Most of the heavily used shelters have designated tent areas nearby, but otherwise you have to be 150 feet away from both the shelter and the trail. I know people who've gotten tickets for that, but they're the sort of hikers who get tickets instead of warnings because they give the ranger a busting bad time. This rule applies just to DEC land, so the only A-T shelter that it might affect is Morgan Stewart. Sterling Forest-Harriman-Bear Mountain is OPRHP (Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation), completely different agency with its own interpretation of the rules.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambit McCrae View Post
    You never know who has had a miserable hike for the day and arrives after dark to your tent setup in what could have been their empty spot.
    precisely the thing all the "its not bothering anyone" people dont seem to get. as for first come, first serve does that mean i can show up at a shelter first and tell everyone the whole thing is mine and no one else can stay? i mean it wouldnt be illegal, right? i've seen smaller that the shelter can hold groups of people do that as well.

  5. #45

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    If you want protection form wind and blowing snow, a tarp across the front of a shelter is lighter and simpler than a tent. If bugs are the problem (not the OPs issue) a bug net is also lighter and simpler. Together they are all the shelter you are likely to need.
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    precisely the thing all the "its not bothering anyone" people dont seem to get. as for first come, first serve does that mean i can show up at a shelter first and tell everyone the whole thing is mine and no one else can stay? i mean it wouldnt be illegal, right? i've seen smaller that the shelter can hold groups of people do that as well.
    I see a straw man in the room. I am yet to encounter anyone that would suggest there is no more room in the inn. Maybe it happens. Maybe I have been lucky. I have seen people invite more in when there seems to be no room. Made me glad I was outside in a tent. Furthermore, I am yet to see anyone suggest a tent should take precedence over a sleeping bag in a shelter. I have seen people suggest it might be acceptable if the place was empty. As to people arriving late and having no spot, I would suggest that maybe they should have lugged a tent. Do not bend that to mean that a tent is acceptable in a crowded shelter. It is not. However, people hiking in late with no portable shelter have a bad plan. Again, I would like to see the post where someone suggests that having a tent in a crowded shelter in okay. If there is plenty of room and it I legal, I don't get the gripe. I also don't see the straw man. Perhaps someone can point him out and show me where someone thinks it is okay for a tent to take precedence over a sleeping bag in a shelter.
    Last edited by BirdBrain; 09-18-2015 at 19:36.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdBrain View Post
    I see a straw man in the room. I am yet to encounter anyone that would suggest there is no more room in the inn. Maybe it happens. Maybe I have been lucky. I have seen people invite more in when there seems to be no room. Made me glad I was outside in a tent. Furthermore, I am yet to see anyone suggest a tent should take precedence over a sleeping bag in a shelter. I have seen people suggest it might be acceptable if the place was empty. As to people arriving late and having no spot, I would suggest that maybe they should have lugged a tent. Do not bend that to mean that a tent is acceptable in a crowded shelter. It is not. However, people hiking in late with no portable shelter have a bad plan. Again, I would like to see the post where someone suggests that having a tent in a crowded shelter in okay. If there is plenty of room and it I legal, I don't get the gripe. I also don't see the straw man. Perhaps someone can point him out and show me where someone thinks it is okay for a tent to take precedence over a sleeping bag in a shelter.

    who said anything about someone not having a tent?

    my point is this- an empty shelter can suddenly turn crowded unexpectedly and the people who show up later shouldnt have to ask someone to take their tent down. truthfully most people probably wouldnt ask.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    who said anything about someone not having a tent?

    my point is this- an empty shelter can suddenly turn crowded unexpectedly and the people who show up later shouldnt have to ask someone to take their tent down. truthfully most people probably wouldnt ask.
    I guess I don't spend enough time in shelters. I am missing all the fun. I sleep outside in a tent. I have set a tent up in a shelter when I was alone. I did it at Beaver Brook to get a view of the sunset and sunrise over the Franconia Ridge. Was all alone. Like I said. I have seen people laughing as they crammed more and more in. It was like watching a vw bug contest. I never see these huge conflicts that people talk about here. I guess I need to stay in shelters more. Maybe not.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  9. #49
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    I find it funny to use a tent in a shelter for critter control. Sorta like protecting a ten cent fuse with a $100 electrical component. Does anyone believe mice won't chew through your gear to get to what they perceive is either food or bedding? That happens even outside of shelters, I have seen it happen. If you don't like critters stay away from shelters.

    outside of winter camping I don't understand why someone would set up a tent in a shelter. Even winter camping is a head scratcher because then you have a tent to pack up in the cold morning.

    but at end of the day, I couldn't give a rats or mouses hind end because I have only spent a couple of nights in a shelter with folks that I wasn't hiking with so it doesn't impact me.

  10. #50
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    putting up a shelter in a shelter is a newbie, scardy cat thing

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malto View Post
    I find it funny to use a tent in a shelter for critter control. Sorta like protecting a ten cent fuse with a $100 electrical component. Does anyone believe mice won't chew through your gear to get to what they perceive is either food or bedding? That happens even outside of shelters, I have seen it happen. If you don't like critters stay away from shelters.

    outside of winter camping I don't understand why someone would set up a tent in a shelter. Even winter camping is a head scratcher because then you have a tent to pack up in the cold morning.

    but at end of the day, I couldn't give a rats or mouses hind end because I have only spent a couple of nights in a shelter with folks that I wasn't hiking with so it doesn't impact me.
    That's nothing. I use earplugs to keep the monsters from eating me at night. But ya'... I agree. I stay away from the shelters to "lower" my risk of critter attacks. In Maine a raccoon might stand on your face to get your food hanging from the mouse trapezes that are in shelters. I try to minimize risks. The only way to eliminate any risk on the trail is to stay home. Of course you run a huge risk of getting fat doing that.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdBrain View Post
    That's nothing. I use earplugs to keep the monsters from eating me at night. But ya'... I agree. I stay away from the shelters to "lower" my risk of critter attacks. In Maine a raccoon might stand on your face to get your food hanging from the mouse trapezes that are in shelters. I try to minimize risks. The only way to eliminate any risk on the trail is to stay home. Of course you run a huge risk of getting fat doing that.

    aww man 5 or 6 nights in shelters in maine and never once has a raccoon ever stood on my face. what a ripoff. of course, it could be because i dont hang my food and wouldnt sleep with my face under it if i did. (i'd probably tie a lousy knot and it'd fall and smack me in the head) had i known that was the way to a have a close encounter of the procyonidae kind i might have tried. i'm more disappointed ive never met a shelter porcupine though, frankly. as for mice? i've always thought the sound of them scurrying round the shelter in the middle of the night (which ive rarely heard as well) to be kind of amusing. and none of them has ever touched any of my stuff. I guess if i was afraid of all the critters in the woods bothering me i'd probably stay home. heck, i dont own any sort of bug net and never carry insect repellant either. its all part of the deal.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    aww man 5 or 6 nights in shelters in maine and never once has a raccoon ever stood on my face. what a ripoff. of course, it could be because i dont hang my food and wouldnt sleep with my face under it if i did. (i'd probably tie a lousy knot and it'd fall and smack me in the head) had i known that was the way to a have a close encounter of the procyonidae kind i might have tried. i'm more disappointed ive never met a shelter porcupine though, frankly. as for mice? i've always thought the sound of them scurrying round the shelter in the middle of the night (which ive rarely heard as well) to be kind of amusing. and none of them has ever touched any of my stuff. I guess if i was afraid of all the critters in the woods bothering me i'd probably stay home. heck, i dont own any sort of bug net and never carry insect repellant either. its all part of the deal.
    I have never had one stand on my face either. Slight exaggeration on my part. I have had plenty of dealings with raccoons though. They are very smart and very brave. I look at those tin cans hanging from strings in shelters and chuckle. Eventually it is going to happen. As far as critters go, I would think spiders would drive skiddish people off the trail first. I can't count the times I have eaten their webs while walking. I agree. It is all part of the adventure.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Wolf View Post
    putting up a shelter in a shelter is a newbie, scardy cat thing
    That's why I did it, put my back against the wall in the corner.

  15. #55

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    I always figured people set up their tent in the shelter to block the wind and maybe gain an extra 5 degrees by holding heat in the tent...or if its snowing or raining and the wind is really blowing I've seen the end of people's sleeping bags get wet or covered with snow...but if its an empty shelter you should be able to find a corner, so the wind is the only thing I can think...unless people really are afraid and a thin piece of nylon really allays those fears.

  16. #56
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    Why is there no "shelters in tents" thread?

    Somebody beens to buy a Yurt and set it up so that one of the A.T. shelters is entirely inside. :-D
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

  17. #57

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    I think it's all appearance in my opinion. My wife and I set up the body of our MSR Hubba Hubba in a shelter in the Smoky's one rainy breezy night to keep from setting up in a downpour and to help cut the wind coming right into the opening. We pushed the tent right up next to the wall of the shelter and believe by doing so we took up less space than we would have by sleeping in the open.
    "every day's a holiday, every meal a feast"

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by elray View Post
    I think it's all appearance in my opinion. My wife and I set up the body of our MSR Hubba Hubba in a shelter in the Smoky's one rainy breezy night to keep from setting up in a downpour and to help cut the wind coming right into the opening. We pushed the tent right up next to the wall of the shelter and believe by doing so we took up less space than we would have by sleeping in the open.

    Agreed. I ran the numbers. The footprint of me in my sleeping bag (not in my tent) is about 500 square inches (about 3.5 square feet) less that the footprint of my LLbean FS1. The majority of that difference is in length. There is no way this is an issue. It is appearance only. I have set up my tent in a shelter a couple times. I did so only when no one else was around. No one showed up. However, lets suppose that 12 people showed up at midnight. Would it be reasonable for someone to have an issue with the 3.5 square feet that I am wasting? Would it be reasonable to opine that I should move outside and give up my spot? It looks stupid to have a tent in a shelter. For the most part there is no reason to do it. For the most part I don't do it. This is an appearance issue. It is not an etiquette issue. If it is a legal issue, then there is a real issue. Other than that, if people are using a coffin like ours, there is just unjustified strong opinions based on the appearance created by a goofy practice.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by elray View Post
    . . . by doing so we took up less space than we would have by sleeping in the open.
    +1 on tents reducing the space my wife and I take up.
    I can get my wife to sleep much closer to me if she is forced to by the wall of a tent instead of being able to "have her own space".
    I'm not lost. I'm exploring.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdBrain View Post
    Agreed. I ran the numbers. The footprint of me in my sleeping bag (not in my tent) is about 500 square inches (about 3.5 square feet).
    You might want to check that ....

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