Tents in shelters

[dabeachman]

I am trying to find a solo tent for the trail. I will most likely be starting in January so don't expect to see too many at first. So I see a lot of people set up tents in shelters when the weather is miserable and they are not putting anyone else out. How important is a freestanding tent in that situation?

[Gambit McCrae]

There is no reason to set up a shelter, inside of a shelter. Either tent, or shelter. You never know who has had a miserable hike for the day and arrives after dark to your tent setup in what could have been their empty spot. A lot of shelters have lofts, half height walls on the opening side, plenty of protection 99% of the time. At the most I would take my fly and lay it over myself within my personal space in the shelter. But if your going to set up your tent, what extra protection are you receiving from the shelter that your tent isn't providing?

[RED-DOG]

I agree NO Tents in shelters.

[tdoczi]

You never know who has had a miserable hike for the day and arrives after dark to your tent setup in what could have been their empty spot.

precisely the thing all the "its not bothering anyone" people dont seem to get. as for first come, first serve does that mean i can show up at a shelter first and tell everyone the whole thing is mine and no one else can stay? i mean it wouldnt be illegal, right? i've seen smaller that the shelter can hold groups of people do that as well.

[BirdBrain]

precisely the thing all the "its not bothering anyone" people dont seem to get. as for first come, first serve does that mean i can show up at a shelter first and tell everyone the whole thing is mine and no one else can stay? i mean it wouldnt be illegal, right? i've seen smaller that the shelter can hold groups of people do that as well.

I see a straw man in the room. I am yet to encounter anyone that would suggest there is no more room in the inn. Maybe it happens. Maybe I have been lucky. I have seen people invite more in when there seems to be no room. Made me glad I was outside in a tent. Furthermore, I am yet to see anyone suggest a tent should take precedence over a sleeping bag in a shelter. I have seen people suggest it might be acceptable if the place was empty. As to people arriving late and having no spot, I would suggest that maybe they should have lugged a tent. Do not bend that to mean that a tent is acceptable in a crowded shelter. It is not. However, people hiking in late with no portable shelter have a bad plan. Again, I would like to see the post where someone suggests that having a tent in a crowded shelter in okay. If there is plenty of room and it I legal, I don't get the gripe. I also don't see the straw man. Perhaps someone can point him out and show me where someone thinks it is okay for a tent to take precedence over a sleeping bag in a shelter.

[tdoczi]

I see a straw man in the room. I am yet to encounter anyone that would suggest there is no more room in the inn. Maybe it happens. Maybe I have been lucky. I have seen people invite more in when there seems to be no room. Made me glad I was outside in a tent. Furthermore, I am yet to see anyone suggest a tent should take precedence over a sleeping bag in a shelter. I have seen people suggest it might be acceptable if the place was empty. As to people arriving late and having no spot, I would suggest that maybe they should have lugged a tent. Do not bend that to mean that a tent is acceptable in a crowded shelter. It is not. However, people hiking in late with no portable shelter have a bad plan. Again, I would like to see the post where someone suggests that having a tent in a crowded shelter in okay. If there is plenty of room and it I legal, I don't get the gripe. I also don't see the straw man. Perhaps someone can point him out and show me where someone thinks it is okay for a tent to take precedence over a sleeping bag in a shelter.

who said anything about someone not having a tent?

my point is this- an empty shelter can suddenly turn crowded unexpectedly and the people who show up later shouldnt have to ask someone to take their tent down. truthfully most people probably wouldnt ask.

[BirdBrain]

who said anything about someone not having a tent?

my point is this- an empty shelter can suddenly turn crowded unexpectedly and the people who show up later shouldnt have to ask someone to take their tent down. truthfully most people probably wouldnt ask.

I guess I don't spend enough time in shelters. I am missing all the fun. I sleep outside in a tent. I have set a tent up in a shelter when I was alone. I did it at Beaver Brook to get a view of the sunset and sunrise over the Franconia Ridge. Was all alone. Like I said. I have seen people laughing as they crammed more and more in. It was like watching a vw bug contest. I never see these huge conflicts that people talk about here. I guess I need to stay in shelters more. Maybe not.

[shelb]

There is no reason to set up a shelter, inside of a shelter.

,,,,,,,,,

Agreed!

[Trailweaver]

If your tent doesn't offer enough protection for you, then you have the wrong tent. Either shelter or tent - not both. Or buy a better sleeping bag.

[dabeachman]

I did not realize it was such a faux pas. I read several books in the last few years and it seemed frequent they would tent in the shelter. I figured I would get the added warmth from he 4th side the tent provides plus critter protection. I plan to use either my 15deg or 0deg bag with a liner and I know what conditions they can keep me warm, but the tent always keeps in a bit more heat.

[George]

lots of responses - nothing constructive

would have to say they have not had much midwinter shelter use - blowing snow etc does make just a sleeping bag less than ideal

a much overlooked option is the bivy sack - reasonable weights, takes up no extra room, keeps the sleep system together, adds warmth, and can be used outside the shelters

example: http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/ca...category/2158/

dominating space in a shelter is never nice, even just being spread out in a sparsely used shelter, be ready to consolidate for later arrivals

[Gambit McCrae]

lots of responses - nothing constructive

would have to say they have not had much midwinter shelter use - blowing snow etc does make just a sleeping bag less than ideal

a much overlooked option is the bivy sack - reasonable weights, takes up no extra room, keeps the sleep system together, adds warmth, and can be used outside the shelters

example: http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/ca...category/2158/

dominating space in a shelter is never nice, even just being spread out in a sparsely used shelter, be ready to consolidate for later arrivals

How is none of it constructive? They asked about tents in shelters, OP said nothing about different shelter options as you suggested. They asked about does and don'ts of setting up tents in the shelters. If you feel the need to protect yourself with your tent, do it in a tenting area.

your right I don't have any experience with snow drifts in shelters because I sleep in my Dern tent.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Yes, your tent needs to be more or less freestanding in order to set it up in a shelter, shelter's usuallydon't have any good anchorpoints to attach to.

The only time I put up a tent inside a shelter is when I'm hiking a less used section of trail, it's the dead of winter and I don't feel like dealing with packing down snow to make a tent site. Typically these shelters have had no log book entries for several weeks prior to my arrival and the snow is completely undisturbed by footprints, so it's a safe bet that I won't be bothering anyone. I wouldn't recommend trying this on any popular stretches of trail.

In reality there's not much advantage to putting up a tent inside the shelter besides not having to deal with the snowpack. I'm fairly sure that the ground is actually warmer since it doesn't have the constant draft underneath that the shelter's floorboards do.

[dabeachman]

Thanks, well put and helpful.

[dabeachman]

Yes, your tent needs to be more or less freestanding in order to set it up in a shelter, shelter's usuallydon't have any good anchorpoints to attach to.

The only time I put up a tent inside a shelter is when I'm hiking a less used section of trail, it's the dead of winter and I don't feel like dealing with packing down snow to make a tent site. Typically these shelters have had no log book entries for several weeks prior to my arrival and the snow is completely undisturbed by footprints, so it's a safe bet that I won't be bothering anyone. I wouldn't recommend trying this on any popular stretches of trail.

In reality there's not much advantage to putting up a tent inside the shelter besides not having to deal with the snowpack. I'm fairly sure that the ground is actually warmer since it doesn't have the constant draft underneath that the shelter's floorboards do.

This was helpful.

[Another Kevin]

YIn reality there's not much advantage to putting up a tent inside the shelter besides not having to deal with the snowpack. I'm fairly sure that the ground is actually warmer since it doesn't have the constant draft underneath that the shelter's floorboards do.

In high summer, I see people tenting in shelters to get some bug protection. I roll my eyes at that, and go pitch my tent somewhere else where I can catch a breeze. Tenting in a shelter looks brutally hot to me.

And Elf is right about the ground being warmer. I can recall one spring weekend when my daughter and I had stopped off at a shelter near the end of a hiking day to get out of the sleet for a bit and have a cup of tea. While we were sitting there, we said to two other parties, "Hey, if you want the lean-to, you can have it! We're just stopped for a break." The answer was, "No thanks! My tent's warmer!" It snowed in the night. In the morning, we could tell from the tracks that five or six of the tent sites nearby were occupied. Nobody stayed at the lean-to.

Tenting in a shelter is unlawful in New York.

[tdoczi]

i still dont get why anyone would want to tent inside a shelter as opposed to out of the shelter. all the justifications offered so far explain why the tent in the shelter is better than being in the shelter without the tent, while ignoring the question of why not just set the tent up outside the shelter?

only time i see this being rational is in the few very limited cases where tenting near a shelter is not permitted. ive more than once happened upon a single tent occupying an entire shelter (albeit one of the smaller shelters) and its one of those things i just stare at in disbelief and wonder how anyone could have possibly decided that was ok.

[Gambit McCrae]

I would say just like anything else; Be mindful of others, the possibility of others and give it a reality check on the spot. In what little experience I have gained in the 800 miles of the AT I have done (Most people on here have a lifetime of experience), cold is cold, 14 degrees is 14 degrees and the space taken up by my tent isn't going to make me toasty warm.

Now if you are looking to retain warmth, tyvek with some thumb taks in an end spot of the shelter would probably do a darn good job at both protection, cost, not impeding on others space and weight savings

[Venchka]

Got an R-5-6-7+ sleeping pad of some sort? If not, get one.
I could see an advantage to using the shelter as a wind block for my tent set up in the lee of the shelter. Maybe add a nice snow wall to add additional wind protection. A few inches of snow under your tent is definitely warmer than a drafty raised floor.
What critters are you worried about invading your tent? You told us about your bags, how storm worthy is your tent?
In January I doubt that you can always count on finding a shelter at the right time of day anyway.
Be prepared. Be warm. Be safe.

Wayne

[rocketsocks]

Many moons ago in a land far far away, once I put my tent (free standing) in a shelter, not rainy tent ti pack up in the morning, no mices, no bugs, no machete wielding killers can get to me with the first shot. Don't know that I'd do that again.