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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AT Traveler View Post
    This is one of those issues that if it has to be explained, its likely not going to be understood.
    Huh, no. I understand what everyone is saying. I just don't agree with it. My comment about being naive was more in the spirit of avoiding confrontation.
    Next time, instead of making an asinine and disrespectful comment about my ability to comprehend an issue, just accept the fact that some people are not going to agree with what appears to be a majority opinion. (At least here.)

    Christ, no wonder so many people are turned off by this forum.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frye View Post
    Huh, no. I understand what everyone is saying. I just don't agree with it. My comment about being naive was more in the spirit of avoiding confrontation.
    Next time, instead of making an asinine and disrespectful comment about my ability to comprehend an issue, just accept the fact that some people are not going to agree with what appears to be a majority opinion. (At least here.)

    Christ, no wonder so many people are turned off by this forum.
    Well, let me try to explain and perhaps its not as asinine a statement as one that claims the animal wasn't harmed, as you do not know that as fact.

    So, why do some people find it cruel to run down a moose crossing an open body of water with a motor boat and then leaping on its back and terrorizing the moose. Start from the top...

    The moose has to cross the lake for whatever reason a moose has to cross a large open body of water. It sets out fine and reaches a third or more across the water and hears a noise. Its the boat full of boys, but the moose doesn't know its a bunch of boys looking to terrorize it, it hasn't a clue what it is, it only knowns its caught in open water. Not understanding what the noise is and starts elevating its stress level, it starts to swim faster than it normally would to reach shore. The boat approaches the moose from the back, the moose stress continues to elevate and swims faster to get away from this "thing".

    Then duckweed Jim jumps on its back. The moose doesn't know its a beer filled boy and presumes its a predator and tries to shake it off while swimming faster. The moose, now in a panic is in very high stress, its snout starts going in and out of the water, interrupting its breathing as the boy is hanging on to its head acting the fool. At some point in this process the moose starts to inhale water, which causes it further panic and expend more energy to get away. The boy then clambers off, the boat picks him up. The moose, free of the weight but now nearly exhausted has half a lake to swim across. The boat, returns for another look at the moose, causing it to swim faster. The moose now moves into a higher state of panic because it knows the predator is returning an it has no defenses. The adrenaline being repeatedly surged through the moose's body now starts to damage internal organs, similar to what dogs chasing it will do on land.

    The boat with the clueless boys then moves on, but the damage may be done. If nothing else, the moose has suffered a very high stress level with associated panic. So the questions are, did the moose make it across the lake or did it drown via panic fed exhaustion? Did it reach land, but the damage from the escape prove to be too much stress on the animals lungs, heart, and/or other organs to live longer than a few hours? Did the moose succumb to predation on leaving the lake due to its lack of strength from its encounter with the boys? Unfortunately, we cannot answer any of those questions with facts, opinions don't count here. Moose, like any other animal will die with high physical stress of that sort, though it may take several hours.

    I made the comment not to your opinion, or perhaps lack of knowledge, to but the dismissal of why so many took a very hard stand against the event. Having seen animals die from this type of thing before, be it from people, dogs, or aircraft, its pretty clear what the boy did was wrong. I'm sorry you don't see that.

  3. #23

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    Yeah, but later we can all sit around the camp fire drinking beer and laugh about it...

    The only problem is moose generally are lightweights when it comes to drinking and they usually end-up stuck in a tree http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe...drunken.moose/


  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by AT Traveler View Post
    This is one of those issues that if it has to be explained, its likely not going to be understood.
    Your first take was the correct one. This act is indefensible and indicative a lack of regard for anything but "fun". Those that can't grasp that are beyond reasoning with. Any explanation will be met with even more incomprehensible "logic". It is best to marginalize and move on.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  5. #25
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    You've seen animals die from this behavior before? Aircraft and dogs? What are you talking about? Pretty vague.

    Ever taken a horse across a river? At least seen it? These animals aren't as weak as you'd like to think, even if it was in panic mode. I also think I made it clear that I thought it was stupid, but it's not as big of a deal as some people want to make it out to be, but that seems to be a common issue among backpackers. Mountains out of molehills.

    All I've heard in this thread is that he should be prosecuted, he's probably lifted on drugs or alcohol, or even that he should be the victim of violence(How serious that last comment was I dunno). None of those solutions are the answer to the problem. It hasn't worked up till now, and it's going to continue not to work.

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    The moose wasn't even swimming...

  7. #27

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    Yeah, I've seen animals run down by dogs, chased by aircraft and die of exhaustion and stress caused by that activity. Not sure what specifics you would want to have, but vague it is not. Its not at all uncommon to see and the reason there are wildlife laws that address such things. You compare this with a domesticated horse crossing a river that is used to a rider illustrates my original comment. Its illegal to harass wildlife, hence the prosecution comments, regardless how one looks at the communal umbrage making mountains out of molehills, or dismissing out of hand.

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    This wasn't a moose being run down by a plane, it was a moose that was walking across a shallow lake that had a man jump on it. Hardly the end of the world. As to what the law says, I'm not concerned with it, there's a legal term known as discretion that allows law enforcement officers to decide if they pursue charges against a suspect or not. In this case, a warning would suffice in my opinion.

    Besides, and once again, I'm not saying nor did I ever say the behavior isn't dumb, it is. Much of the reaction towards it though falls under the same category (For the sake of ending this I'm not going to elaborate further, nor am I referring to you actually).

    In the end I disagree, there's no need for us to continue this. Let's just agree to disagree. =D

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    Moosegate.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdBrain View Post
    Moosegate.
    Ha!

    The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AT Traveler View Post
    Well, let me try to explain and perhaps its not as asinine a statement as one that claims the animal wasn't harmed, as you do not know that as fact.

    So, why do some people find it cruel to run down a moose crossing an open body of water with a motor boat and then leaping on its back and terrorizing the moose. Start from the top...

    The moose has to cross the lake for whatever reason a moose has to cross a large open body of water. It sets out fine and reaches a third or more across the water and hears a noise. Its the boat full of boys, but the moose doesn't know its a bunch of boys looking to terrorize it, it hasn't a clue what it is, it only knowns its caught in open water. Not understanding what the noise is and starts elevating its stress level, it starts to swim faster than it normally would to reach shore. The boat approaches the moose from the back, the moose stress continues to elevate and swims faster to get away from this "thing".

    Then duckweed Jim jumps on its back. The moose doesn't know its a beer filled boy and presumes its a predator and tries to shake it off while swimming faster. The moose, now in a panic is in very high stress, its snout starts going in and out of the water, interrupting its breathing as the boy is hanging on to its head acting the fool. At some point in this process the moose starts to inhale water, which causes it further panic and expend more energy to get away. The boy then clambers off, the boat picks him up. The moose, free of the weight but now nearly exhausted has half a lake to swim across. The boat, returns for another look at the moose, causing it to swim faster. The moose now moves into a higher state of panic because it knows the predator is returning an it has no defenses. The adrenaline being repeatedly surged through the moose's body now starts to damage internal organs, similar to what dogs chasing it will do on land.

    The boat with the clueless boys then moves on, but the damage may be done. If nothing else, the moose has suffered a very high stress level with associated panic. So the questions are, did the moose make it across the lake or did it drown via panic fed exhaustion? Did it reach land, but the damage from the escape prove to be too much stress on the animals lungs, heart, and/or other organs to live longer than a few hours? Did the moose succumb to predation on leaving the lake due to its lack of strength from its encounter with the boys? Unfortunately, we cannot answer any of those questions with facts, opinions don't count here. Moose, like any other animal will die with high physical stress of that sort, though it may take several hours.

    I made the comment not to your opinion, or perhaps lack of knowledge, to but the dismissal of why so many took a very hard stand against the event. Having seen animals die from this type of thing before, be it from people, dogs, or aircraft, its pretty clear what the boy did was wrong. I'm sorry you don't see that.
    The scenario:An adult moose is trying to cross a shallow lake.Why? it has been chased by a pack of wolves. The Alpha male wolf closes the gap and try to stop the moose from behind by biting the moose's back and neck area. The moose now fighting for it's life try to swim to the deeper water and manages to defend himself by swimming faster . the rest of the pack are not able to catch the alpha male and the alpha male realizing that he has a very slim chance of success abandons the chase and hunt and the moose swims out of the water and disappear in the forest.

    Has this moose experienced a serious life and death situation ? Sure.

    Does this moose survive to see another day. I say sure it does. I even think half an hour later the moose would be searching for a green pasture. It is the way their lives has been in the wild forever. If that was not the case we did not have this many moose in the world.

    I think next time the moose would be afraid of boats more than an average moose.

    Do not underestimate the strength and stamina of an animal as big as a moose. Their close relatives( rain deer ) has been used as a mean of transportation in Siberia for a long time.

    Ps: I condemn the act of the guy and the one who was riding the boat and the one who was filming the incident because of disturbing the wildlife unnecessarily and just for a short period of laughter and I hope they pay for their stupidity according to the law but I am with Frye on this issue. It is not as big a deal as the media and some of us trying to make it to be.

  12. #32
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    This has less to do with if the moose would survive than it does with what type of person would do such a thing. The moose surviving is not a justification. The thread now is become what kind of person would justify such an action.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdBrain View Post
    This has less to do with if the moose would survive than it does with what type of person would do such a thing. The moose surviving is not a justification. The thread now is become what kind of person would justify such an action.
    I agree with you. The moose's survival does not justify his act. But thinking a moose would possibly be permanently hurt (or terrorized for life !!!) for what the guy did to it is stretching the situation.

    I think social media has its good and bad side. Nowadays somebody uploads a stupid video, then some people finds it disturbing and condemn the act, then a wave of condemnation arises and we think every single person have to condemn the act to the extent the others have done previously or people think he/she is cruel or uneducated or ignorant as the guy that has done the stupid act in the first place.

    Frye clearly said he thinks the guy is stupid but he said the uproar does not match with the reaction and punishment some people are desiring for the stupid guy. I am with Frye .

  14. #34

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    Any one know if this dude got prosecuted, much worst than the what the idiot in the OP did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JVkaMqD5mI

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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdBrain View Post
    This has less to do with if the moose would survive than it does with what type of person would do such a thing. The moose surviving is not a justification. The thread now is become what kind of person would justify such an action.
    So a persons character should be the main deciding factor in their punishment?... In that case I can think of a lot of people who should be locked away for life.

    Thankfully we live in a free society where this isn't the accepted norm.

    Just sayin'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frye View Post
    So a persons character should be the main deciding factor in their punishment?... In that case I can think of a lot of people who should be locked away for life.

    Thankfully we live in a free society where this isn't the accepted norm.

    Just sayin'
    I said nothing about punishment. Pause and let that sink in for a moment.

    A fly is only a fly. It takes a freak to sit there and rip their wings off for pleasure. Should the freak be locked up? No. He is a freak none the less. I am not a person that loves animals more than people. I am a person that thinks that people harassing animals for sport are morons. I don't desire to be Solomon and mete out any punishment. You have succeeded in getting me to respond. Since you succeeded I will be provocative too. Laws are created for the lawless and only morons require a law that carries a penalty for jumping on the back of a swimming moose. Cases like this provoke me to the respect I have for authorities. It is why it is my kneejerk reaction to give deference to them every time. They have to deal with idiots arguing if this type of act is wrong. It is like debating with a 3 year old.

    Okay. The floor is yours. I am putting the thread on ignore. Feel free to continue with your lunacy. I give you the last word. That sort of thing is very important to people that think that obtuse reasoning screamed the loudest wins.
    Last edited by BirdBrain; 09-26-2015 at 09:04.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedaling Fool View Post
    Any one know if this dude got prosecuted, much worst than the what the idiot in the OP did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JVkaMqD5mI
    Yup, the hard to look at dirty little secrets that no one talks about at party's...bears gotta eat to. Birds are pretty brutal too.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    ...Birds are pretty brutal too.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yirHPVxSMgc

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdBrain View Post
    I said nothing about punishment. Pause and let that sink in for a moment.

    A fly is only a fly. It takes a freak to sit there and rip their wings off for pleasure. Should the freak be locked up? No. He is a freak none the less. I am not a person that loves animals more than people. I am a person that thinks that people harassing animals for sport are morons. I don't desire to be Solomon and mete out any punishment. You have succeeded in getting me to respond. Since you succeeded I will be provocative too. Laws are created for the lawless and only morons require a law that carries a penalty for jumping on the back of a swimming moose. Cases like this provoke me to the respect I have for authorities. It is why it is my kneejerk reaction to give deference to them every time. They have to deal with idiots arguing if this type of act is wrong. It is like debating with a 3 year old.

    Okay. The floor is yours. I am putting the thread on ignore. Feel free to continue with your lunacy. I give you the last word. That sort of thing is very important to people that think that obtuse reasoning screamed the loudest wins.
    The moose wasn't swimming!

  20. #40

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    There was an old saying about bear baiting to the effect that people opposed it not for what it did to the bear, but for what it did to the person. I think that's what's happening here. People are upset not because there is any apparent harm to the moose - there is none at all, and comments about its stress level make that obvious - but because they are offended by the attitude of the morons in the boat. They're acting like idiots, but I can't imagine that's prosecutable. Maybe there's some kind of a minor citation for harassing wildlife, I don't know.

    But I think the reaction on the forum is partly due to the sentimental, naive attitude of many of my fellow backpackers (and modern folks generally) that nature is pristine, peaceful and inherently morally superior to mankind. It is not, it is actually "red in tooth and claw", and those jackasses in the boat are almost certainly less destructive or cruel, and kinder and more sensitive, by any objective standard, than the moose is.

    They're still jackasses, though.

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