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  1. #1

    Default Winter in the whites. Gear/tactics advice!

    Planning on going up some 4,000 footers this winter in the white mtns. Starting with some shorter mountain hikes for practice. I have lived in New England my whole life and the majority of my hiking is done in the white mtns. I mainly do three season hiking but have been up and have hiked in the mtns when there was snow in the spring. I've postholed more than i'd like to admit.

    Aside from a climb up tuckermans in the dead of winter, I want to climb some of the other more moderate hikes. Layafette, twins, zealand for example.

    My question is really gear. I know how to prepare when it comes to clothes. Layers and such. I have enough proper winter clothing to do some hiking. I do not own mountaineering boots and will be hiking in regular merril hiking boots.

    When it comes to traction, will snowshoes and katahoola microspikes be sufficient? I also am going to put a set of snow baskets on my trekking poles.

    Do I need crampons for regular on trail hikes up there?

  2. #2
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastfoxengineering View Post
    Do I need crampons for regular on trail hikes up there?
    Are you familiar with:

    http://www.vftt.org

    When it comes to deciding if snowshoes are needed, or what kind of traction is a good idea on any specific trail, they can be a great resource.

  3. #3
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    If it is sub-zero outside, do not hike in your regular hiking boots. Go to North Conway and stop into International Mountain Equipment http://www.ime-usa.com or to East Mountain Sports and rent a pair of insulated boots, tell them what your trip plan is and they should tell you whether you need real mountaineering boots or just insulated hiking boots. You can also rent any other equipment you may need.

    You probably already know this, but layers, layers, layers. Hike wearing just enough to keep you warm without sweating and immediately put on your puffy jacket each time you stop. If you don't own a puffy jacket then you can rent one as well.

    I will let the locals jump in with more specific information since I have only been up there a couple of times in winter. The one thing I can say for sure is that the weather and temperature sure can change fast, the last time I was up there it dropped from 35* to -15* in a few hours. For current information on trails and conditions I would recommend stopping in at the Pinkham notch visitor's center before you go to your intended trailhead http://www.outdoors.org/lodging/lodges/pinkham they should be able to help out with any questions.
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  4. #4
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    Be prepared. Be safe. The White Mountains don't play.

    http://www.climbandmore.com/climbing,229,0,1,books.html

    Wayne



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  5. #5

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    I have my winter 4 k list done long ago and am out most weekends in winter if the weather if reasonable. Regular hiking boots are effectively going to stop you "dead in your tracks". You need winter boots for winter hiking, summer or fall boots wont work and frostbite is a possibility. It you plan on multiday trips and want to go out despite the weather conditions, double plastic boots will keep your feet warm. The trade off is that they are quite uncomfortable and reduce your daily mileage. The far better alternative is to buy a mid range winter boot like a Columbia Bugaboo boots. Labonville's in Gorham NH has a nice selection of winter boots. The trick to climbing winter 4Ks is to start slow and pick which days to go. Many folks run microspikes instead of crampons, I find I use microspikes, 95% of the time but for the longer more exposed hikes I carry and occasionally use Grivel G10 crampons. prefer Hillsounds microspikes compared to Kahtolas. When you buy the boots bring your extra heavy socks and make sure you have enough toe space for toe warmers.

    Many folks want to skip the small summits and jump right to the big boys. You might get lucky but until you get your clothing and equipment system down you aren't ready. Start with the "peek a boo" summits like Pierce, Field, Tom, Willey. then stretch out your distances and length of time on the trail to summits like Carter Dome, the Twins and Garfield. Realize that in winter a good forecast the night before is just the start of a plan. Many folks plan a trip a night or two before and ignore the forecast in the AM. Weather conditions can change rapidly overnight and many folks get in trouble that way. If you don't find yourself canceling or moving a winter hike on occasion you are probably pushing it and we may read about you in the papers.

    Get your navigation skills down. Some trails drift in in hours, what can be well beaten trench at one point can disappear quickly in blowing snow. Blazes and signs may be buried.

    Dealing with water in the winter is also something you need to gain experience with. Forget Camelbacks or hydration systems. They might work but when they inevitably freeze up you are screwed. Skip the learning experience and carry nalgene bottles in insulated containers and fill them up in the AM with hot water.

    Layering is important, if you are warm at the trailhead you probably have too much gear on. Unfortunately once you get hiking you will warm up quick but you cool down quicker so you need plenty of layers you can add on. Gear for your hands is also a challenge, you need a pair of super warm mittens for when your hands get cold but you will probably be hiking with liner gloves and fleece mitts. Not a lot of folk find insulated ski glove usefull. Make sure whatever you wear has room for hand warmers.

    Buy a larger pack or substitute an overnight pack for a winter daypack. Generally a summer day pack is too small. Rig the pack so you can easily attach and detach your snowshoes. They should go on and off quickly with gloves on. Ragged Mountain gear in Bartlett has all sorts of pack hardware in the basement so you can rig on extra straps.

    There are several Meetup.com groups that hike the whites in winter. Some leaders are quite skilled, some are learning but going with a group is a plus unless you get in over your head.

  6. #6
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    The White Mountains and the Adirondacks aren't too different. Check out what AMC Winter Mountaineering School requires. That's a pretty good overview of what you need to be safe in the Northeast high peaks in winter.

    http://winterschool.org/WMS%20Student%20Handbook.pdf

    Yes, the Northeast high peaks are that deadly.

    You don't need plastic mountaineering boots on any of them, (and in fact, I don't own a pair because I only bag one or two peaks in a winter) but virtually all experienced winter hikers invest in a pair sooner or later. You do need insulated boots. Sorel Caribou seem to be what all us cheapskates get. They must have removable felt liners so that you can try to field-dry them in a pinch. Whatever boots you get must be compatible with your snowshoe and crampon bindings. You also need a vapor barrier on your feet or you'll be standing in a puddle. I'm a cheapskate, so what I use is thin nylon or polyester dress socks, then doubled plastic bags (bread bags or newspaper bags), then my regular wool hiking socks.

    You don't need climbing crampons for these routes. But you do need something more aggressive than microspikes sometimes. I have been on a climb where the folks in microspikes couldn't gain purchase on one nasty bit of ice. We had some minimal climbing gear with us, so we were able to rig a hand line and let the microspikers put on a harness, tie a Prusik in a piece of utility cord, and pull themselves over the bad spot. Those of us with crampons and axes just continued to cruise on up. I don't recall even needing to front-point.

    What most cheapskates gravitate to is either Black Diamond Contact Strap or Grivel G12. DO NOT get aluminium crampons. They don't hold up to the hard ice and mixed routes that we get here.

    On any route where you need crampons, you need an ice axe. A general mountaineering axe is what you want, not ice tools for climbing. Black Diamond Raven is popular. Length is a subject of controversy. My instructor recommended one that comes at or a little above your ankle bone when you hold it comfortably piolet en canne. (If you don't know what that phrase means, you need ice axe training. ADK, AMC, GMC, and a couple of the chain outfitters offer lessons.)

    Ascent snowshoes are a major plus. Heel lifts and aggressive crampons really help on the fall-line trails that we have here in the East. On my last winter trip, a couple of the guys in the group paused on this ledge to switch from conventional tubular-frame snowshoes to crampons. I was still feeling secure on my Black Diamond Lightning ones, so I just left them on and they took to the 'snowcrete' on the exposed ridge just fine. The guys with conventional snowshoes did fine, though. They just switched to crampons sooner than I did.


    Incidentally, that was a day of perfect weather as far as a Northeast winter goes. 18°F at the summit, and whiteout no worse than you see in the picture. (In summer, that spot has a terrific view.)

    Also, by the way, that 65L pack was for a day trip. It's been four years since someone's died of hypothermia atop that particular mountain, but I didn't want to be the next one. Elf is right about layers. In that picture, I'm wearing baselayer, fleece, wind jacket and pants. I was getting a little warm, so I took off my mittens (you can see them dangling on idiot cords), my tuque and my balaclava. I had another set of fleeces and a puffy at the top of the pack. And a tarp and a sleeping bag at the bottom, because in those conditions a turned ankle can easily mean an overnight stay - and without adequate insulation, an overnight stay means death. That's what happened four years ago.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  7. #7
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    I wear Sorrels. I always carry crampons microspikes and snowshoes (MSR Evo Ascent.)

    I usually wear my Granite Gear Vapor Trail pack. Inside it is a space blanket or maybe my lightest sleeping bag, extras of many items, eg. gloves, hat, outer layer, etc.

  8. #8
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    Oh, an afterthought about boots, since you asked specifically about them. If you don't have hard-shell mountaineering boots, but are wearing pac boots or GI Mickey Mouse boots, carry a rubber patch kit. There are two classes of winter hikers: those who have put a crampon point or ice axe spike through a rubber boot, and those who haven't yet. A hole in a boot that lets snow in is a recipe for disaster.

    Wear gaiters, too. It is otherwise 100% guaranteed that you will catch a front point in your trouser leg at some time during your trip.

    Don't ask me how I learnt either of these pieces of advice.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venchka View Post
    Be prepared. Be safe. The White Mountains don't play.

    http://www.climbandmore.com/climbing,229,0,1,books.html
    Also: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2..._Without_Peril
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  10. #10
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    This is a very popular crampon for winter peakbaggers in the White Mountains:

    http://hillsound.com/hillsound-produ...l-crampon-pro/

    Do NOT rely on the insulating power of a single down puffy jacket. Not while hiking, in any case. If you wear it during strenuous hiking, your sweat will condense within the jacket, the down will compress, and within a an hour or two at the most it will be a soggy mess and will have lost most of its insulating power. As others have said, it's all about layers. Use the puffy for camp or for breaks.

  11. #11

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    I will only be planning day hikes when there's a good forecast. Kinda like how I embrace rain on a backpacking trip but for a day hike if rains in the forecast ill prob stay home.

    I have a 45L pack.

    For clothing I have:

    Smartwool midweight leggings
    EMS nylon hiking pants
    Cabelas Rain Pants
    thick smartwool trekking socks
    regular cushion darn tough hiking socks
    lightweight synthetic long sleeve baselayer
    EMS polartec fleece hoody
    Montbell Exlight down hoody
    burton ski jacket
    capilene 4 beanie
    merino beanie
    I have wool glove liners but need shell gloves, any suggestions?
    ski goggles

    I have more fleece layers and such at home. Any input?

    Thanks guys

  12. #12

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    While you might be able to get away with a Thinsulite insulated boot and microspikes, I would not bet my life on them. Unfortunately, a pair of plastic double boots and step in crampons will set you back 500 to 600 bucks. But you can rent them or save a little by buying used. For crampons, I prefer 8 points. 4 points in the toe, 4 points in the heel with a flexible band connecting them in the middle. This allows you to walk on mixed rock and ice or wind packed snow much easier then 12 pointers, which are designed for ice climbing.



    You will need snowshoes to get to tree line. Ones with heel risers are nice when you hit the really steep part of the trail before breaking out above the trees. Even if a trail is well packed, you should use snowshoes to keep from chewing it up and it makes it much easier.
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  13. #13

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    You will also need a face mask. When your walking into a 50 mph wind with a -100 wind chill, you can't have any exposed skin. Nice clear days are also the coldest and windiest. It's a rare winter day when the winds aren't howling up there. Even when it's blistering cold, don't over dress. If you sweat too much, once you stop to catch your breath you will chill down very quickly. A Gortex shell is the best. It really works in winter conditions to disperse sweat into the cold, dry air around you. Have the down jacket in the pack to put on if you stop for more then a couple of minutes.

    Don't forget knee high gaiters either. You definitely need mitten shells. Stop by Ragged Mountain in North Conway for a good selection of suitable winter gear.
    Follow slogoen on Instagram.

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    [QUOTE=Another Kevin;2009238]The White Mountains and the Adirondacks aren't too different. Check out what AMC Winter Mountaineering School requires. That's a pretty good overview of what you need to be safe in the Northeast high peaks in winter.

    http://winterschool.org/WMS%20Student%20Handbook.pdf

    Yes, the Northeast high peaks are that deadly.

    Better yet, take the class. I did, decades ago, and I may still be here as a result. And yes, as Kevin says, crampon points love pants legs.
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

  15. #15

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    That's an excellent resource. Thank you!

    I have a twenty dollar gift card to EMS. I think I'm going to put that towards two wide mouth nalgenes and two of those EMS nalgene coozies.

    Keep the suggestions coming guys, I appreciate it.

    I have a ton of winter gear I have used for snowboarding and most of it applies here. Baselayer, socks, midlayers, etc. I have nice goggles and a nice face mask.

    I dont want to drop a ton of money on gear, however, I'm willing to spend where appropriate and safety is obviously number one.

  16. #16
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    You ask about gear but I'd like to comment on a non-gear issue. I suggest that you not hike alone in the winter.

    Maybe that's just me. I have no issues hiking or backpacking alone in summer. But if it's more than a trivial walk in the park, I almost never hike alone in winter. So many more things can go wrong, and there are far fewer people to come to your aid. People can and do die in the White Mountains every winter. Please be careful out there.

    It's not that difficult to find hiking partners -- use meetup.com, or just lurk on VFTT (Views From The Top), where folks often suggest or announce meetups, usually with a few days advance notice...

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafe View Post
    You ask about gear but I'd like to comment on a non-gear issue. I suggest that you not hike alone in the winter.

    Maybe that's just me. I have no issues hiking or backpacking alone in summer. But if it's more than a trivial walk in the park, I almost never hike alone in winter. So many more things can go wrong, and there are far fewer people to come to your aid. People can and do die in the White Mountains every winter. Please be careful out there.

    It's not that difficult to find hiking partners -- use meetup.com, or just lurk on VFTT (Views From The Top), where folks often suggest or announce meetups, usually with a few days advance notice...
    Safety is paramount. I will not hike alone.

  18. #18
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    Yer in fine hands here...
    Only thing to add- a shakedown trip is probably in order before you go fer any peaks. Preferably one of the short weekends or dayhikes you're familiar with.
    Find a spot you can poke yourself just past treeline and scoot down easily just in case. As Kevin said, planned or not, every hike there is an overnighter.
    I'd try a winter solo of Long's peak before I tried anything in the whites... serious place there.

  19. #19

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    BTW, I have a pair of plastic boots, I have not used them in 5 years and have been up on the high summits numerous times since then with my New Balance winter boots (not currently in stock). I have very wide feet (13 EEEE) so getting pair that fits is a PITA. Getting wide plastic boots is basically impossible, the outfitter just recommend going up a size or two which causes other issues.

    If the weather is cold enough for plastic boots I stay home.

  20. #20
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    I hesitate to chime in here, since my winter hiking experience is limited to the Southern mountains (though I do have a fair amount of it), but you need a better hat. Something that covers your neck all the way around, and is windproof and warm. A hood is nice but can restrict head movement and vision. A fleece or wool beanie is not close to enough.
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