Opinions about Quilts

[Dogwood]

BTW, in my goal to be UL and hike simply, being a well experienced LD hiker, with a sometimes willingness to shell out BIG bucks for what I considered the HIGHEST QUALITY gear, also having a VERY patient and observational non complaining mindset, after MUCH careful analysis and mediation, I rarely choose to hammock or quilt in winter(20* and below) on LD outings.

As one who regularly pushes himself seeking to expand his emotional, mental, physical, and spiritual self sleep is simply too valuable of an asset to stubbornly refuse to admit when a piece of gear or a system isn't appropriate FOR ME. You have to KNOW THYSELF IMO to do this though. You have to be willing to be honest. And, you should have a very good working knowledge of and in the outdoors to RIGHTLY decide what is appropriate for you or for given situations.

[wi11ow]

That is a benefit of section hiking..you can be out a few weeks and see what is or isn't working for you personally and adjust.
I too have learned that my hammock only feels right for ME when I have a permanent base camp and the temp is above 50, for now anyway. Who knows how my body will feel on the ground ten years from now lol.
Personally, I know I wouldn't enjoy LD hiking if the temp was going to be below 30 degrees.
It took me two years to figure those things out but its been so much fun! I have a lot of silly memories of things that I tried that absolutely did not work out like I thought they would..like I'm really glad I was alone when trying to hang a bear bag for the first time haha.

Dogwood, you are wise to point out that it's good to have a balance between challenging yourself and being honest with yourself.
As my body ages I know I'll have to continue to learn and adjust.
It will be fun trying out some new things to get my sleep system right. It's so nice having such a great community to learn from and get ideas from!

[Just Bill]

I've never seen a Nunatak quilt in person. Though the brand is considered a high end one, custom, hand made, etc. You're paying for some of those things.
I would say that from a brand perspective, these are up there if not beyond Western Mountaineering bags. In addition they are probably a lower volume boutique type setup and have a good enough rep that they can operate that way.

They use name brand fabrics...
Pertex runs $16 a yard at retail, the Argon that HG uses retails as little as $5 yard. The epic fabric is up there in brand name with Gore-Tex. Brand names cost more.

They appear to be highly differential cut, shaped baffle, mummy bag level of design. All these items are much higher labor cost versus a simpler cut of quilt.

During the Asian Bird Flu, down prices went up a good bit. They have since come down. (get it)
EnLIGHTened Equipment comes to mind as a vendor who adjusted their pricing to reflect this... some of the other vendors have not.
I'm not sure if HG has but likely they have. I recall this jump being $100 or so per bag at one point, so that is a big factor in current pricing.

Long story short- nothing jumps off the page to justify paying near double. Equal or lesser fill power of down- so no blaming 950 fill or other crazy expensive materials.

Using pertex and epic fabrics likely gave them an advantage in the market for some time, however with water resistant down becoming commonly available... you don't need name brand fabrics to alleviate that concern. You also don't plan to open bivy like a mountaineer might... so an epic (WPB membrane) shell is way overkill too.

If you might like a shaped bag... katabatic makes similar bags in regards to complex construction.
If you might want to try something other than HG... Enlightened is a good vendor to look at for a better value in a simpler cut.
HG offers both .67 and .90 shells, a few ounces lighter or better durability... but others offer similar choices if that is important.

Not sure if HG offers WR down. It sounds like that option is one that would be important to you.

Dogwood made an excellent point- Women's sleeping bags are different, and in general women should expect a 5-10 degree colder rating than an average man in a gender neutral bag.
That said- quilts are a bit different too- but in a sleeping bag- the areas you mentioned- hips and lower torso are specifically addressed in women's bags with sizing and insulation placement. I prefer women's bags specifically for that reason actually- they tend to have more fill in relation to shell weight provided they fit you properly. But a quilt can't really take advantage of some of those tricks... so you may simply be best bumping the rating.

Depending on sleep positions... I have more issues with drafts in that area in a hammock. With the footbox being tight, and the top tucked around you... the middle can pucker easily. This can cause drafts or simply more dead area for your body to heat. The solution is to use a pad strap in that location to make sure the quilt doesn't open on you. Take some time to sleep outside at home... pay attention to where you are cold and why.

But take your men's rated 20* quilt...
Take off 5-10* just fer being a gal
Take off 5-10* fer being a cold sleeper (or having drafts, poor fit, bad sleep position, etc)
And perhaps figure that you're in the damp east and give yourself another 5-10 degree ding there
My dad lives in Denver, on a recent trip he commented that he forgot how "damp" it was here in Chicago. Dampness chews at you pretty quick and is easy to dismiss as a cause of chill- but it can make a big difference as anyone who has penned an article on site selection will tell you.
As others mentioned, going to bed fueled and hydrated makes a difference, as does headgear...

Suddenly it doesn't seem horribly unreasonable that your 20* might not be enough even at 40* for you.
It sounds like bumping to a HG 0* or checking out an EE bag may be a good fit. You may want to compare a 10* EE quilt too, EE comes in 10* increments so that may be a better split for you between the zero and the 20.
You may also consider a synthetic vest, like a Patagonia nano-puff to give you some extra core warmth in your 20* if you have that option... it may be enough to do the trick.

FWIW- As a warm sleeper used to pushing stuff pretty hard... I'm having a hard time with hanging as it's easy to "lose" 10-20* in the air.
So don't feel too bad about the hammock giving you troubles... I'm starting to realize why the hammock forum crowd tends to be overly cautious compared to the ground dwellers on their gear.

[Dogwood]

As I sit here in a my $300 leather designer reclining desk chair on a early sat morn glued to the pixels again wishing I was in a 8 lb spacious Hilldeberg sprawled out with 21 days of vegetarian chow with a dozen books and handful of crosswords in some remote forest far away from the radiation 18" from my brain snuggled into my Feathered Friends Swallow UL I at least knew if I was patient Just Bill would save me from typing another long winded detailed but valid post.

[egilbe]

Sounds like you have enough pad under you with the Exped pad. Do you use the straps that come with your quilt? Just Bill started a thread here about layering quilts for Winter hiking and sleeping. It works pretty well, for me, but I'm using a lightweight 30* down sleeping bag under a 30* EE Synthetic quilt. If I had to do it again, I'd get a warmer down bag or down quilt under a cooler synthetic quilt.


http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthre...tacking+quilts

[MuddyWaters]

Quilts are great.
The are not as warm as bags
too many drafts
AND some makers are ....very conscious of what their quilts weigh and want to claim they have the lightest.
So they dont add much extra down. What happens from loft loss due to humidity and multiple days use?
They also will offer 900 fill , which is more affected by humidity than 800, in the name of weight savings for you.
800-850 is probably the best all around fill. It is more resistant to loft loss, and light enough.

They used to have weight savings
Till all the fat people wanted them too, and the width crept up
And the vendors got busy and dont want to do custom width now, cause they are busy selling wide quilts to fat hikers that want a quilt
The extra width is also to help mitigate drafts
The perfect quilt width was....52" for ground sleeping.

The flat footbox you see on some...is horrible. If you sleep on back, your feet point up, substantially compressing insulation over toes until there is none there.
Why do you think a WM bag has 2x the thickness of the rest of the bag at the feet and does not have a flat desigh
Why do you think people are buying down booties and have cold feet

Always go with a quilt, rated 10F below expected conditions. I will take my WM bag to its rating or slightly below and be toasty. Ive never been able to do that with a quilt, and I have several.

3 oz is NOT worth losing a good nights sleep over. Ever.

[Vegan Packer]

Now that you are mature... you may be a "cold sleeper". EN ratings are based on fit 20 somethings. It's a simple fact of life that as we age we could easily face a 5-15 degree ding in selecting a sleeping bag. Sounds like your main issue to be honest. If selling you a bag I'd recommend you add 10*.

Depending on age of your prodigy- In my experience- Apex declines 5-10* after a good season of use.

It was a brand new set up. Used only 5 days before the trip in question. I store it carefully, so that it is never compressed when not in my pack. It looks like I am just becoming a cold sleeper, apparently.

Quilts have a learning curve... and one somewhat fatal flaw... they can be drafty.
If your quilt is undersized for you, even slightly, you will not see the intended rating in real life conditions... even if the real life condition is you tossing and turning.
A bigger quilt may help bust drafts...

I have a long and wide model, just because I want to be comfortable. I am barely 5'9" and I am not a large framed guy. I tuck in around me. I am in my tent. I don't think drafts are the issue. It is really only my core that is cold.

If you are looking at quilts that have a 10 ounce penalty going from 50* to 40*.... you're probably looking at the wrong quilts.

Long x Wide in 50F = 15.6
Long x Wide in 40F = 22.25

I was just going by memory. I guess that 6.65 ounces is not so bad.

Bringing clothing along to supplement a sleeping bag always weighs more than sizing a sleeping bag right in the first place.

The rule of thumb I use- Pick the clothing you would wear anyway. Then pick the sleeping bag you need.
If they can work together... great. But if you find you are adding clothing you wouldn't bring otherwise... time to look harder at the sleeping bag.

Done.

[wi11ow]

Thanks for all the information about the different fabrics.
Sounds like spending the extra $300 might not be worth it and that I'm not really missing out on anything major by sticking with a HG 0 degree.

I have looked at the EE quilts but I'm not sure if I would like the cut/baffle position and I know I like how the HG is cut.

I know you can get overfill on many quilts. Maybe I'll ask if I can have my overfill in the areas I know I'm colder...sounds like thats what they do with women's bags.

I've yet to use straps to secure my quilt so that's something I'll try too.

I have a patagonia vest that I received as a gift that I wear at night in the fall. It's down filled and I don't know its "title". My top layers are really loose on me though so I think I'll try wearing a closer fitting base layer.
I have a fleece hat and neck gaiter and a nose warmer that I crocheted so my head/face area is warm. My feet are fine with my smart wool socks.

Reading these posts have me thinking a lot more about how much I'm eating and drinking. More fat and water I think.
If I'm really honest with myself I realize I do drink less when its colder out. I just kinda forget to.
Thinking back my coldest nights were after days that I pushed myself really hard and didn't eat much. I guess I can "get away" with that in the warmer months but not so much when its chillier out.

Maybe if I eat hot peppers and ginger all winter that will help ;-)