Trail, Dog ,Leash and the the historical controversy

[Kookork]

I am one of the dog owners that do not put a leash on my dog while hiking. Not because I do not respect the law.

I have a Sheltie. He is well trained, really well trained. He just does what I ask him to do. Nothing less nothing more. He chases squirrels around the house but not when we are hiking. He does not approach other hikers unless they show him some affections or he knows them. He is small and cute so by no means he looks intimidating to people who have a healthy/unhealthy fear of dogs.

Despite these good characteristic, the reason that he is not on leash is not that he has all the necessities of a good trail dog. He is off leash because it is safer for him and me.

Let’s be practical, if you leash your dog, there could be mostly two scenarios. Either he walks in front of you or he walks behind you. We all know that on trails the chance of the dog hiking side by side of the owner is minimal due to the narrow nature of the trails .

Now what is wrong about the dog being on a leash and walking behind the owner? Two things, first the chance of pocking your dog with your sharp hiking poles tips when he gets too close and second the chance of him slowing down for a second or two for so many reasons and then giving you and him a shock when the leash reaches to the end between you two. The sudden stop happens quite commonly.

You pass by a snake and do not notice it while your dog does. He wants to pee , or smell the roses ,or he wants a second to choose how to climb the rock that you just jumped over. These are some of the scenarios that your dog that is leased behind you suddenly stops and you get the shock( that occasionally put you or your dog in an off balance situation).

Now what is wrong with your dog being on a leash in front of you? Mostly in this scenario it is the dog that needs to define the pace of your hike. He again stops suddenly for any reason and you are forced to stop suddenly. He wants to jump over the rock but just short of the top of the rock his leash comes to an end and he falls back. He slows down just a little bit for any viable reason and you pock him unintentionally with the tip of the hiking pole. You want to speed up but he does not know the pace you want to hike.

Not long ago, I was hiking in a conservation area. It is a pedestrian trail and my dog was on leash because there were so many signs that said so on a upward slope.
Suddenly out of nowhere a biker appeared on his mountain bike and wanted to pass between my dog that was behind me on the left side of the trail and me walking on the right side of the trail. I am talking about a split second time. He could have crushed my dog, me or injure himself badly if he wanted to pass between my dog and me while there was a leash between me and my dog. I just throw my end of the retrieving leash toward my dog and a split second later the bike passed safely .

Now imagine what the end result was if my dog was attached to me by a fixed leash that was tied to me or my pack by a knot!!!

That is why I don’t use the leash. It is dangerous for so many reasons and not because I don’t care about the law.That is actually because I care about the safety of my dog, myself and other hikers who share the trail with us , legally or illegally.

[Puddlefish]

Got it, a bunch of contrived scenarios are the excuse you use to break the rules to make yourself feel better about breaking the rules.

I've posted elsewhere, but I couldn't take my dog on the trail because of people like you. My dog was an otherwise well trained shelter dog that could not stand other dogs. Dogs socialize differently from humans, one often asserts dominance. You never know how two dogs will react to each other.

Everyone seems to think that their dog is amazingly well behaved and trained and should be the exception to the rule. Instead I've saw dozens of unleashed dogs just run up to my leashed dog and suddenly I'm dancing around the trail trying to keep two dogs apart to prevent a dog fight. I sadly had to make the decision to leave my dog at home while hiking, because of people like you.

Dozens of other times I've met dogs ranging ahead of their owners, who have growled at me, essentially stopping my progress until the owner shows up a few minutes later assuring me "He/she's harmless, he/she wouldn't hurt anyone!" I've also seen dozens of happy dogs on the trail who I'll pet and will be harmless. I've seen exactly two in my lifetime who actually came when they were called and sat patiently by their owner as I passed.

There's just a serious disconnect between the high percentages of owners who claim "my dog is perfectly trained" and what I've experienced in real life. We'll probably just have to agree to disagree on this issue because I'm going to believe my lying eyes.

[Kookork]

Got it, a bunch of contrived scenarios are the excuse you use to break the rules to make yourself feel better about breaking the rules.

I've posted elsewhere, but I couldn't take my dog on the trail because of people like you. My dog was an otherwise well trained shelter dog that could not stand other dogs. Dogs socialize differently from humans, one often asserts dominance. You never know how two dogs will react to each other.

Everyone seems to think that their dog is amazingly well behaved and trained and should be the exception to the rule. Instead I've saw dozens of unleashed dogs just run up to my leashed dog and suddenly I'm dancing around the trail trying to keep two dogs apart to prevent a dog fight. I sadly had to make the decision to leave my dog at home while hiking, because of people like you.

Dozens of other times I've met dogs ranging ahead of their owners, who have growled at me, essentially stopping my progress until the owner shows up a few minutes later assuring me "He/she's harmless, he/she wouldn't hurt anyone!" I've also seen dozens of happy dogs on the trail who I'll pet and will be harmless. I've seen exactly two in my lifetime who actually came when they were called and sat patiently by their owner as I passed.

There's just a serious disconnect between the high percentages of owners who claim "my dog is perfectly trained" and what I've experienced in real life. We'll probably just have to agree to disagree on this issue because I'm going to believe my lying eyes.

I have seen criminals but that does not change my idea about the good nature of human being in general because of exceptions. So I don't walk in society thinking the guy that is sitting next to me in a bus or subway is one of those psychos. There is nothing wrong about agreeing to disagree . They seem like bunch of excuses in your eyes and bunch of reasons for me.
Sorry you can't take your dog on trail . I feel you , but do not vent on me. I have that "perfect" dog and not by chance but by vigorous training and responsibility. He is 19 pound and do not approach other dogs even if they want him to do. He is always just meters behind me .

[Puddlefish]

I have seen criminals but that does not change my idea about the good nature of human being in general because of exceptions. So I don't walk in society thinking the guy that is sitting next to me in a bus or subway is one of those psychos. There is nothing wrong about agreeing to disagree . They seem like bunch of excuses in your eyes and bunch of reasons for me.
Sorry you can't take your dog on trail . I feel you , but do not vent on me. I have that "perfect" dog and not by chance but by vigorous training and responsibility. He is 19 pound and do not approach other dogs even if they want him to do. He is always just meters behind me .

I guess the responsible thing for you to do then, is not to encourage people to unleash their dogs based on a one in a million trail bike incident. If you've hiked any amount of time, I can't imagine that you haven't been annoyed or inconvenienced by unleashed and poorly trained dogs that will mess with your dog or you.

Maybe you could post some ideas on how you train your dog, specific techniques and such so that your dog follows and doesn't lead? That would be a lot more helpful than encouraging people to break the trail rules because this one time an idiot on a bike blasted by you. It's not you I'm annoyed with specifically, but I can't agree with what you're proposing to other people who's dog training ability is very likely substandard when compared to yours.

[Malto]

I have no doubt your dog is well trained for trail and thank you for doing that. However, few are in spite of owners truly believing that their dog is an angel only to find out they act a bit differently in the woods. On two different occasions I have had dogs come tearing down down the trail toward me only to hear "He's friendly." As they sat there barking and growling the next statements were "He has never acted like this before."

I am a huge dog person, have over 200 lbs of pooch laying on the floor beside me. So this wasn't me putting off fear. But dogs will often act differently when they are out of their normal environment. So for the other 99% percent of dogs not as well trained, they should be on leash. The problem is there is more than 1% with dogs off leash.

[Lone Wolf]

ALL dogs belong on leashes on ALL trails. period. sheltie or not

[Mags]

On the AT, the dog has to be on leash about 40% of the time per regulations.

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home...ilies-and-pets

Restrictions

Dogs are NOT allowed in three areas along the A.T.:

• Baxter State Park, Maine
• Bear Mountain State Park Trailside Museum and Wildlife Center, New York (an alternate road walk is available)
• Great Smoky Mountains National Park, Tennessee and North Carolina

​Leashes

Leashes are required on more than 40 percent of the A.T., including:

• Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area, Pennsylvania and New Jersey
• Maryland (entire state)
• Harpers Ferry National Historical Park, West Virginia
• Blue Ridge Parkway, Virginia
• 500+ miles of A.T. land administered by the National Park Service

[Puddlefish]

I have no doubt your dog is well trained for trail and thank you for doing that. However, few are in spite of owners truly believing that their dog is an angel only to find out they act a bit differently in the woods. On two different occasions I have had dogs come tearing down down the trail toward me only to hear "He's friendly." As they sat there barking and growling the next statements were "He has never acted like this before."

I am a huge dog person, have over 200 lbs of pooch laying on the floor beside me. So this wasn't me putting off fear. But dogs will often act differently when they are out of their normal environment. So for the other 99% percent of dogs not as well trained, they should be on leash. The problem is there is more than 1% with dogs off leash.

If the trail rules didn't specify a specific length of leash, I'd use a 50' length of line. Of course this entailed my being very attentive to the dog's location, that of other hiker's and such. No earbuds, so I could reel her in when the situation dictated. My dog was mostly well trained to the short leash, and I taught her a bunch of useful commands.

Off the leash, she pretty much ignored me. The freedom of the wide open world just overwhelmed her training and desire to work. I got her later in life, as a shelter dog, and therefore some of my training just didn't stick. Which brings me to your point, of dogs behaving differently out of their normal environment. I've very much found that to be true.

My next dog, I intend to get a puppy/young dog and train it from the start in trail environments. I'm not going to assume however that I've trained the dog for every eventuality, and therefore will keep it leashed on the trail.

[Kookork]

I guess the responsible thing for you to do then, is not to encourage people to unleash their dogs based on a one in a million trail bike incident. If you've hiked any amount of time, I can't imagine that you haven't been annoyed or inconvenienced by unleashed and poorly trained dogs that will mess with your dog or you.

Maybe you could post some ideas on how you train your dog, specific techniques and such so that your dog follows and doesn't lead? That would be a lot more helpful than encouraging people to break the trail rules because this one time an idiot on a bike blasted by you. It's not you I'm annoyed with specifically, but I can't agree with what you're proposing to other people who's dog training ability is very likely substandard when compared to yours.

This is a constructive comment. My intention was not to encourage the irresponsible dog owner to let their dog off leash but I can see the result of my thread now. Sorry about that.
I have been pissed off so many times by the dogs that have approached me well before their owner friendly or not. It is wrong. I have suffered also.

In my ideal world, there should be a place that they can test the dogs. let's say there is a trail, you go there and the authorities hike by you and your dog for couple of miles( or more) and decide whether an owner's claim about his/her dog to be an appropriate trail dog is true or not. If true give the dog the appropriate documents that let that particular dog have some freedom that he/she deserves( like hiking off leash) . If they fails the test , then he should be on a leash and the admission and test fee goes to some organisations that maintain the test.
To me it is not fair that we treat all the dogs( good, bad and vicious) exactly the same.

[Puddlefish]

This is a constructive comment. My intention was not to encourage the irresponsible dog owner to let their dog off leash but I can see the result of my thread now. Sorry about that.
I have been pissed off so many times by the dogs that have approached me well before their owner friendly or not. It is wrong. I have suffered also.

In my ideal world, there should be a place that they can test the dogs. let's say there is a trail, you go there and the authorities hike by you and your dog for couple of miles( or more) and decide whether an owner's claim about his/her dog to be an appropriate trail dog is true or not. If true give the dog the appropriate documents that let that particular dog have some freedom that he/she deserves( like hiking off leash) . If they fails the test , then he should be on a leash and the admission and test fee goes to some organisations that maintain the test.
To me it is not fair that we treat all the dogs( good, bad and vicious) exactly the same.

Agreed... and I suppose I was venting a bit. Sorry about that.

[adamkrz]

I'm with you Kookork, My dog is trained to my commands 100%, always 3 feet ahead of me, My observations are people here suck - People on the trail otherwise,

[Lone Wolf]

My observations are people here suck

typical, defensive dog owner response

[Kookork]

I'm with you Kookork, My dog is trained to my commands 100%, always 3 feet ahead of me, My observations are people here suck - People on the trail otherwise,

When I moved to Canada and decided to have dog, i searched internet and there were some websites that you could search for the most suitable dog for you. You answer some questions and they recommend the appropriate dog for you. Sheltie was the one recommended by all three of the websites.
Still not enough for me, I found a guy that was breeding shelties and went and observed the breed . Listening to me 99 percent of the time was not enough, I wanted to give my dog freedom knowing he will never break the rules.

Now my dog is 7 years old and enjoys the freedom he deserves . He never did something wrong so I never restricted him. Win win situation. I rip the harvest of vigorous training when he was under a year old.

Responsible and knowledgeable owner, right breed and vigorous training are all necessary for a having a good dog.

[damskipi]

I have a Sheltie. He is well trained, really well trained. He just does what I ask him to do... He is small and cute so by no means he looks intimidating to people who have a healthy/unhealthy fear of dogs.

yeah...no

I'll start by explaining my relationship with dogs so you know I am not overreacting. I've had dogs most of my life. Some better trained than others. My current dog is a 60+lb Boxer who loves being outdoors. We've been through puppy, level 1, and level 2 training together. Sadly not much stuck. Like Puddlefish I adopted my dog when he was already a bit older and not all of the training "stuck." I have hiked with other dogs that were great trail dogs, some with excellent recall. Regardless, I always hike with dogs on their leash.

You see, you don't seem to understand what an "unhealthy fear of dogs" actually means. It doesn't matter how cute or small your dog is if somebody has an irrational fear of them. He is going to be intimidating. I don't think my dog would hurt somebody even if I was being attacked, he's that submissive. And yet, I've seen people quiver in fear of him, when he was leashed and more than 50 feet away, because the fear is IRRATIONAL. I have a family member who has nightmares if she sees a dog unleashed because she is convinced one will attack her. So I do my part to contribute to the mental health of these people by keeping my dog leashed. I'm not going to stop hiking with him, but I don't have to terrorize people. Not to mention it helps myself and my dog - I don't have to hear complaints about poor handling of my dog and he gets to be outside with me where he wants to be.

[Kookork]

ALL dogs belong on leashes on ALL trails. period. sheltie or not

Typical Lone wolf comment. Not here for discussion but for talking about his unshakable unwavering beliefs. I am still a fan Sir.

[Sarcasm the elf]

yeah...no

I'll start by explaining my relationship with dogs so you know I am not overreacting. I've had dogs most of my life. Some better trained than others. My current dog is a 60+lb Boxer who loves being outdoors. We've been through puppy, level 1, and level 2 training together. Sadly not much stuck. Like Puddlefish I adopted my dog when he was already a bit older and not all of the training "stuck." I have hiked with other dogs that were great trail dogs, some with excellent recall. Regardless, I always hike with dogs on their leash.

You see, you don't seem to understand what an "unhealthy fear of dogs" actually means. It doesn't matter how cute or small your dog is if somebody has an irrational fear of them. He is going to be intimidating. I don't think my dog would hurt somebody even if I was being attacked, he's that submissive. And yet, I've seen people quiver in fear of him, when he was leashed and more than 50 feet away, because the fear is IRRATIONAL. I have a family member who has nightmares if she sees a dog unleashed because she is convinced one will attack her. So I do my part to contribute to the mental health of these people by keeping my dog leashed. I'm not going to stop hiking with him, but I don't have to terrorize people. Not to mention it helps myself and my dog - I don't have to hear complaints about poor handling of my dog and he gets to be outside with me where he wants to be.

While I support leashes being used on the A.T. Why would you suggest that people's actions should be dictated by other people's IRRATIONAL fears? That's not a very good way to go through life.

Just a rhetorical question...

[Traillium]

I had a Golden Retriever for 17 years, 12 of which he was my teaching partner outdoors. In the woods, in the fields, in canoes, on farms, in towns, in buildings. Everywhere off leash.
As with Kookork, I put a lot of effort into training him right from when I got him at 7 weeks old. Since he had to think for himself all the time, he became very alert and 'intelligent' and yet fully responsive.
He was totally dependable. Totally. Tolerated, indeed loved kids mauling him, but at least one eye and one ear were always tuned on me. As were mine on him.
He had a major role in saving the life of a troubled kid — through that wonderful acceptance and understanding of an independent thinking dog.
If I still had him, I'd be handling him like Kookork. Off leash.


Bruce Traillium

[Kookork]

yeah...no

I'll start by explaining my relationship with dogs so you know I am not overreacting. I've had dogs most of my life. Some better trained than others. My current dog is a 60+lb Boxer who loves being outdoors. We've been through puppy, level 1, and level 2 training together. Sadly not much stuck. Like Puddlefish I adopted my dog when he was already a bit older and not all of the training "stuck." I have hiked with other dogs that were great trail dogs, some with excellent recall. Regardless, I always hike with dogs on their leash.

You see, you don't seem to understand what an "unhealthy fear of dogs" actually means. It doesn't matter how cute or small your dog is if somebody has an irrational fear of them. He is going to be intimidating. I don't think my dog would hurt somebody even if I was being attacked, he's that submissive. And yet, I've seen people quiver in fear of him, when he was leashed and more than 50 feet away, because the fear is IRRATIONAL. I have a family member who has nightmares if she sees a dog unleashed because she is convinced one will attack her. So I do my part to contribute to the mental health of these people by keeping my dog leashed. I'm not going to stop hiking with him, but I don't have to terrorize people. Not to mention it helps myself and my dog - I don't have to hear complaints about poor handling of my dog and he gets to be outside with me where he wants to be.

Not here to question you but I think taking a dog in older age is not a safe bet if you want a completely obedient dog. don't get me wrong, there are perfect dogs that have come from shelter and turned great but not a safe bet.

If I had a boxer that was 60+ pounds and wanted to venture 50 feet ahead or behind me , I would keep him an a leash, I promise.

I am talking about a 19 pounds dog that is 5 feet behind me and has been with me since he was two months old.

[damskipi]

While I support leashes being used on the A.T. Why would you suggest that people's actions should be dictated by other people's IRRATIONAL fears? That's not a very good way to go through life.

Sorry if I was unclear. I'm not intending to say that people's actions should be dictated by other people's irrational fears. What I meant was that in sections where leashes are required, the defense of "my dog isn't scary" is not justification for breaking the rules. People with a fear of dogs will choose areas where dogs are not allowed or are required to be on a leash because the assumption is people are following the rules and they should be able to hike in peace. In areas where dogs are allowed without a leash, go wild. Anybody with a known fear should be responsible enough to avoid that area. But don't give good dog owners a bad name because you feel the rules shouldn't apply to you.

[Lone Wolf]

Typical Lone wolf comment. Not here for discussion but for talking about his unshakable unwavering beliefs. I am still a fan Sir.

but i'm right. pure and simple. have respect for other people. i'm legally allowed to open carry a firearm in most AT states but i don't cuz it would freak people out. it ain't all about you and your precious sheltie