Coffee on the trail...

[TX Aggie]

They won't, but I'll still say my peace too about hijacking, which of course, I am currently doing as well.

Since it's hijacked, I do have one comment on "LNT"... As Wayne alluded to, there is simply no way to leave no trace when hiking. I know it's just semantics, but I sure wish whoever started LNT called it "Leave Minimal Trace" or something like that.

And for the record, though I never do it (because I use instant coffee) I find no problem with burying coffee grounds in your poop hole in the morning. Not sure why coffee grounds are any more of a "trace" than poop? But to each his/her own ethics.

My only issue with dumping coffee grounds is I’m curious how many bears come stumbling by in the morning trying to get their caffeine fix from discarded grounds near a shelter campfire.


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[rocketsocks]

My only issue with dumping coffee grounds is I’m curious how many bears come stumbling by in the morning trying to get their caffeine fix from discarded grounds near a shelter campfire.


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I make em walk to the nearest road crossing garbage can and dive for it.

[Hikes in Rain]

Coincidently I carry a couple of horseshoes too. When I'm high up on some steep inaccessable trail it's always fun to put a few random hoofprints in the mud just to mess with people.

I was going to make a sarcastic comeback about titanium horseshoes, since I'd love to do this kind of thing to my fellow hikers, too. But then I found they really do have them! http://www.championhorseshoe.com/home.html

[jj dont play]

Starbucks iced coffee mix, mixes well in cold water..I don't carry a stove..that's what I did for my thru
Caffeine pills and L-theanine now, lighter, quicker and more effective


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[theinfamousj]

how about you simply leave a shared resource better than you found it.

So, by this argument, fertilizing acid loving plants with used coffee grounds by not packing them out would be exactly the thing to do. After all, you are leaving it better than you found it if you give a plant desired and needed nutrition.

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[Sarcasm the elf]

So, by this argument, fertilizing acid loving plants with used coffee grounds by not packing them out would be exactly the thing to do. After all, you are leaving it better than you found it if you give a plant desired and needed nutrition.

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Acid loving plants? You mean like hallucinogenic mushrooms?

[theinfamousj]

Acid loving plants? You mean like hallucinogenic mushrooms?

I was thinking rhododendrons (which are plentiful along my region of the AT), but I won't deny any plant their coffee ground nutritients.

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[D2maine]

So, by this argument, fertilizing acid loving plants with used coffee grounds by not packing them out would be exactly the thing to do. After all, you are leaving it better than you found it if you give a plant desired and needed nutrition.

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pretzel logic at its best

[theinfamousj]

pretzel logic at its best

Not at all. Just that "leave it better than you found it" isn't the instructions you wish to convey. Because leaving something better than you found it means to better the thing: water plants, help trapped fish get back to the school, fertilize plants in need of nutrition, prune diseases limbs from trees that the trees may have a longer life, etc. Being good stewards.

You mean "leave no trace". No Trace means that whatever the state of the thing when you encountered it is the state it remains in. Trees die of disease. Plants die of malnutrition. Fish dies of starvation from being trapped away from its feeding ground. Because that is what nature chose so don't dare alter it.

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[grubbster]

pretzel logic at its best

Great album!

[devoidapop]

So, by this argument, fertilizing acid loving plants with used coffee grounds by not packing them out would be exactly the thing to do. After all, you are leaving it better than you found it if you give a plant desired and needed nutrition.

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Acid loving plants? You mean like hallucinogenic mushrooms?

I always pack out my used blotter paper.

[D2maine]

Not at all. Just that "leave it better than you found it" isn't the instructions you wish to convey. Because leaving something better than you found it means to better the thing: water plants, help trapped fish get back to the school, fertilize plants in need of nutrition, prune diseases limbs from trees that the trees may have a longer life, etc. Being good stewards.

You mean "leave no trace". No Trace means that whatever the state of the thing when you encountered it is the state it remains in. Trees die of disease. Plants die of malnutrition. Fish dies of starvation from being trapped away from its feeding ground. Because that is what nature chose so don't dare alter it.

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none of that makes the natural environment better...

[theinfamousj]

none of that makes the natural environment better...

That depends on how you define "better". You ought to note that avoidance of disease or death is an accepted definition, though.

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[theinfamousj]

Or put differently:

"Leave it better than you found it" is vague because it includes a subjective portion where each person is free to choose which definition of "better" they want, and even in the case of picking the definition which references superior quality, that too is subjective. So as an instruction it is vague and will likely result in the instruction giver being displeased with the result of someone who thinks they have followed the instruction.

"Leave it alone" is specific. "Do not touch" is also specific.

The problem I always see with LNT arguments is they by the very act of interacting with a thing, humans change the thing so it is impossible to leave *no* trace. Which is why there are LNT principles that get awfully specific such as describing how to poop or wash in the woods. Each of these does alter the environment, but in a way that is determined to be minor and acceptable. Yet there are some who confuse "minor and acceptable" with "no" and think the two are synonymous; they are not.

I really like the principles and wish to see more things spelled out in clear and instructive language rather than large vagueries such as "better" or impossibilities such as "no trace". I also appreciate regular review of the principles to adapt them as humanity better understands the interconnectedness of ecosystems as we are nowhere near omnipotence so are simply operating under the best information of this moment and the next moment may need a modification to behavior.

What I find important, however, is that we each not just knee jerk our outdoor interaction philosophies, but instead think all the way through what our words mean in practical terms before typing them, and also do understand that we are pretty much *all* coming from a point of wanting to conserve the environments we find so restorative and enjoyable rather than to be mad that someone is preserving forest differently than we would wish they would because, hey, they are preserving forest but maybe might not be aware of the latest peer reviewed scholarship on the subject. We are all on the same team and ought to be peer mentors, not dictators.

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[Sarcasm the elf]

Or put another way, we all are probably in 98% agreement regarding backcountry stewardship practices and LNT. The amount of time people on this and other internet sites spend bickering over the other 2% of the minutiae is simply isn't productive and typically makes us look like fools.

[SoaknWet]

Unfortunately humans have a tendency to change anything they come in touch with! Example is how many times have human been on the Moon? Now many pounds of trash were left behind? The moment you use your cathole you and a thousand others have already changed the natural environment!

[Hikes in Rain]

<Pours a cup of *coffee* and sits back to watch the show>

[Traffic Jam]

Here's an idea. Apply LNT principles to the use of social media . Reduce the social media "footprint" and there will be so few hikers, a few coffee grounds or catholes won't matter.

[rocketsocks]

I like brewing with orange peels in my grounds, gives it a real earthy taste.

[Traffic Jam]

I like brewing with orange peels in my grounds, gives it a real earthy taste.

Cool idea.

I drank some orange-flavored coffee once. It was odd and delicious.