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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Wolf View Post
    i'll say it again for 100th time, put caretakers at every shelter/campsite on the GA AT
    Agreed.

    What if they also charged a nominal amount to camp at the established sites, say $3-$5 per night. I'm just thinking outloud, but I wonder if bringing a small amount of cash into the equation early on might manage some of the entitlement problems and expectations of free stuff. Plus it would more than pay for the care takers. It seems like the less experienced folks often have a strong preference to camping in numbers at the shelters so I wonder if they'd go for it.
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by soilman View Post
    You can be critical of the ATC but they have been preserving and managing the trail for over 90 years. I think they probably have a grasp of the problems and potential solutions. They do have a policy on shelters and camping adopted in 2007 and this action fits this policy. I have read they are to increase the number of caretakers and ridgerunners this year. To me it is sad that a bunch of adults need to have babysitters.
    Problem is a lot of them are barely adults.

    Speaking as a former young adult, there are a lot of 21 year olds that still have a lot of growing up to do. The same can be said of a few 40 and 60 year olds as well.
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm the elf View Post
    Problem is a lot of them are barely adults.

    Speaking as a former young adult, there are a lot of 21 year olds that still have a lot of growing up to do. The same can be said of a few 40 and 60 year olds as well.
    People say that about young people but at least on the PCT at the start the vast majority of hikers in that age group were respectful and didn't seem to create any trouble (however, many do smoke a lot of pot ... not an issue for me but might be for some).

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    While "paddy rollers" and "paddy wagon" both have "paddy" in the term, I don't think they are related in any other way, i.e. the term "paddy wagon" was not derived from the term "paddy roller".
    I suspect you're right. Etymology is a tough thing to pin down exactly. Both seem to be bastardizations of the word patrol/patrol wagon. Words drift, and it's not unknown for the same word to drift in different locations at different times. One might have drifted because of the pronunciations, one might have drifted because of the Irish descent of the officers, or more cruelly the occupants in the back.

    It's also a bit strange/coincidental that both groups have had ancestors enslaved in the past. Although, that can also be said of far too many groups. Growing up Irish, with recent ancestors from the Boston area, I always felt the term was derogatory and coined by Boston WASPs, rather than ex slaves. It would probably make an interesting research project/thesis paper.

    As to the shelter, I'd much prefer a spread out tent/campus near a privy and water source than a noisy box. I do wonder "Why not both?" We'll just have to wait and see what they end up building and how it works out.

    I officially booked my flight to Atlanta and my Hiker Hostel reservation today for April 6th, so I'll be interested in seeing what time frame "later this year" entails. If at all possible I'll be avoiding shelters anyway.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by cneill13 View Post
    Yes, there is more garbage than normal. But I was also at a few shelters, the Rufus Morgan shelter in NC comes to mind, where there was not a spot of garbage anywhere. I even filmed it I was so impressed. And this was during the peak NOBO hiker bubble.

    l
    do not fool yourself that this was because no one left garbage - it was because it had recently been cleaned up

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by wornoutboots View Post
    Why would anyone hike 1/2 mile off trail to camp when you can find wonderful, established sites hidden just off the trail?
    here gets to the crux of the issue - no they are not going .5 off trail to camp, the maintainers will be overjoyed at how tidy the site / privy is (not thinking about how useless the effort to build it was because it is almost never used)

    no, they are not going to camp at "hidden" spots, it will be spots visible from the trail that will get the lions share of extra use - spots of course without privies

    what happens where people sleep? - it also is where they crap, think a little snow and frozen ground early season - wala crap piles everywhere there is a decent tent spot

    this is what the shelter detractors fail to consider: "impact" = crap piles
    if the shelter/ privy system has only one redeeming benefit it is minimizing "impact" (crap piles) from every usable camping spot along the trail - and around potential water sources

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambit McCrae View Post
    Wonderful,
    So only 50 out of 1000 folks are gunna trash the trail. That's just about enough to fill every shelter in Georgia. The point to all of this is how to educate the 5%, and not just deal with it.
    you are making the assumption that being "educated" = doing the right thing………. if this was true, there would be no white collar crime

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm the elf View Post
    Agreed.

    What if they also charged a nominal amount to camp at the established sites, say $3-$5 per night. I'm just thinking outloud, but I wonder if bringing a small amount of cash into the equation early on might manage some of the entitlement problems and expectations of free stuff. Plus it would more than pay for the care takers. It seems like the less experienced folks often have a strong preference to camping in numbers at the shelters so I wonder if they'd go for it.
    this would also tend to disperse "impact" who wants to pay for what is free a few hundred yards away

    again when you think impact, think "crap piles"

  9. #49

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    The word Paddy has its origins from the word Padraig ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padraig ) , which is basically an Irish male; the diminutives are either Podge or Paddy. And Paddy was often used as a pejorative. And since so many Irish were unruly and always getting arrested, the cops in certain parts of the country had to use wagons to round them up, hence the term Paddy Wagon eventually got coined, at least that' the theory, sounds pretty solid to me. See Paddy Wagon here>>> http://www.rsdb.org/search?q=irish


    I think the word Paddy for African-American slaves had something to do with fields, but haven't really looked into it yet, but hopefully I will get some time later... I am kind of curious why they called them Paddy Rollers...

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    you are making the assumption that being "educated" = doing the right thing………. if this was true, there would be no white collar crime
    Using educated out of context George, I do not mean that because one knows calculus that they will not litter.

    I mean that if there are caretakers and volunteer to educate people, Instead of give out sodas and hotdogs, in the form of showing them how to take care of our land and why it is important, that it will have a positive impact.

    Wonder what the impact of Smoky the bear has been over the years. For one it was an iconic character for youngsters (our future generations), as well as a little tick in the back of our brain before leaving a campfire burning.

    Same could work for the AT if the ATC started a "Only you can prevent littering" campaign with some stupid funny character.. Like a squirrel! lmao
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  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedaling Fool View Post
    The word Paddy has its origins from the word Padraig ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padraig ) , which is basically an Irish male; the diminutives are either Podge or Paddy. And Paddy was often used as a pejorative. And since so many Irish were unruly and always getting arrested, the cops in certain parts of the country had to use wagons to round them up, hence the term Paddy Wagon eventually got coined, at least that' the theory, sounds pretty solid to me. See Paddy Wagon here>>> http://www.rsdb.org/search?q=irish


    I think the word Paddy for African-American slaves had something to do with fields, but haven't really looked into it yet, but hopefully I will get some time later... I am kind of curious why they called them Paddy Rollers...
    Patrols/Patrollers --> Padrol/Padrollers --> Paddy Rollers ---> Rollers (Blues Brothers NSFW language maybe)

  12. #52

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    What's funny is that a Patroller is one that engages in a patrol and the word Patrol has its origins in the French language and it originally meant as one who paddles in the water or tramps thru the mud. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patroller

    But how African-Americans used the terms Patty (or Paddy) is unclear to me, but they did use the term Rollers as slang for cops, so if you put them together it can be Patroller. It's funny, but seems like patroller may have two separate origins....but I believe it's just a coincidence, but crazy....

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambit McCrae View Post
    Using educated out of context George, I do not mean that because one knows calculus that they will not litter.

    I mean that if there are caretakers and volunteer to educate people, Instead of give out sodas and hotdogs, in the form of showing them how to take care of our land and why it is important, that it will have a positive impact.

    Wonder what the impact of Smoky the bear has been over the years. For one it was an iconic character for youngsters (our future generations), as well as a little tick in the back of our brain before leaving a campfire burning.

    Same could work for the AT if the ATC started a "Only you can prevent littering" campaign with some stupid funny character.. Like a squirrel! lmao
    I took "educated" just as you meant it as in "LNT" - my point is knowing the right thing is not the same as doing the right thing

    about the prevent littering - there used to be the "woodsy owl" champaign of "put trash in it's place (garbage receptacles) - now nearly every park /picnic area/ road crossing has removed the garbage cans ??????

    on another note - always entertains me that the same people who comment about burning garbage/ plastic in a shelter fire pit never make any effort to clean up / haul out garbage

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    I took "educated" just as you meant it as in "LNT" - my point is knowing the right thing is not the same as doing the right thing

    about the prevent littering - there used to be the "woodsy owl" champaign of "put trash in it's place (garbage receptacles) - now nearly every park /picnic area/ road crossing has removed the garbage cans ??????

    on another note - always entertains me that the same people who comment about burning garbage/ plastic in a shelter fire pit never make any effort to clean up / haul out garbage
    It's amazing how a few hiking bloggers advocate LNT in one breath, then rationalize why they and they alone have such an intimate knowledge of the flora and fauna that they can make their own rules.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Wolf View Post
    i'll say it again for 100th time, put caretakers at every shelter/campsite on the GA AT
    Put a door on them, serve the hikers supper and breakfast and charge them 130 dollars a night.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    While "paddy rollers" and "paddy wagon" both have "paddy" in the term, I don't think they are related in any other way, i.e. the term "paddy wagon" was not derived from the term "paddy roller".

    Paddy rollers became the municipal police departments. Primary function was slave / minority control before the war, and after for many decades.

    The shortened paddy is simply slang for whats known as police.

    Or you can believe its because people think all policeman are irish and paddy is like patrick...maybe up north in ny, not in the south.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by gpburdelljr View Post
    While "paddy rollers" and "paddy wagon" both have "paddy" in the term, I don't think they are related in any other way, i.e. the term "paddy wagon" was not derived from the term "paddy roller".

    Paddy rollers became the municipal police departments. Primary function was slave / minority control before the war, and after for many decades.

    The shortened paddy is simply slang for whats known as police.

    Or you can believe its because people think all policeman are irish and paddy is like patrick...

    Paddy wagon means police wagon.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 01-20-2016 at 18:23.

  18. #58

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    People have been trashing shelters and partying since forever, this is nothing new and unlikely to ever change. You can still find garbage pits full of rusting tin cans near some old shelters from a time when leaving garbage was a common practice.

    The fact that there are so many more people on the trail multiplies the problem, but considering how many people are now on the trail, the problem is not as bad as it could be.
    The AT - It has it's ups and downs...

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotton Terry View Post
    I'm loving this thread. It's like a family Sunday dinner when I was a kid.

    BTW, during my short section hike through this area last year, I was surprised by the number of tent sites along the trail between Springer and Neel Gap. For my thruhike this year, I'm going to shy away from the shelters.
    That sums it up for me... "Sunday dinner". I'm not a thruhiker but Terry has the right idea... although, there is a fine line between camping away from the shelters and creating a bigger footprint. At the end of the day, it's about being considerate (responsible) enough to leave no trace... So next time it looks new to the next person.


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  20. #60
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    I would like to thank the ATC, GATC, US Forest Service and David Stelts for requesting/orchestrating volunteers to help in this HUGE project.

    I drove 9 hours to volunteer and am part of TATC and ALDHA . Volunteers (men and women) from PATC and Tennessee Eastman Hiking Club also drove many hours to be part of this project. Experts figured out how to manage larger amounts of hikers and came up with this plan. The side trail is at least an hour drive on gravel roads and at least a 45 min hike up and down several hills to get to so I do not expect hordes of party animals. There is not a big area of tent sites but as you walk down the side trail widely dispersed tent pads that are carved into steep slopes are all along the way so the first there get the close ones. The pads are 10 x 12 feet so several 1 man tents can fit or 2 larger tents. Widow makers were cut down so there is less chance of a tree falling on a site. Remember strong healthy trees can and do also fall. It took about 50 volunteers from the GATC to cut in the new trail, I along with others cut in 13 of 30 pads to be built. Most pads cannot see the other sites but in winter with colorful tents they may be visible. There will be a smoldering privy that will be HUGE about half way along the trail, at the end is a YEAR ROUND spring. These sites are grand and have a great view. With time and a bit of perfecting they will be flat, no rocks, no roots and not dished out mud puddles. Of course right now they are frozen dirt. Oh by the way it was 11 degrees and I do not think it got above 32. Millions of rocks were dug out and millions of roots were cut. 200 Army Rangers have also volunteered to bring in all the parts of the privy. Please join clubs and volunteer for projects like this and be a part of change.

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