Winter storm Jonas

[Traillium]

Walter, you dont pack the snow down with your snowshoes and sleep on top of the snow? Snow is a good insulator. The ground is usually colder and if you dig down, you make a cold sink you are sleeping in...brrrr

Loving his thread and the wisdom from you folks with experience!

I'll make one assertion that is perhaps a sort of complication …

Here in the frozen North (southern Ontario, which has actually been uncharacteristically warm this season) I used to teach about snow ecology. We'd dig a pit through snow down to ground level, clean the face to a vertical plane so as to feel the different crystalline layers, and then insert long thermometers into each separate layer. For deep snow (knee-deep and more), the ground level is almost always at or even above freezing. The temperature grades to cooler as we approached the surface. Snow is a good insulator (and there's a whole living ecosystem under a good snowpack).

However, this gets somewhat complicated when we then consider sleeping on the ground as compared to sleeping on a layer of compressed snow. Depending on the extent of the snow compression, and on the resultant crystal structure of the snow, and the extent of heat ’leaking’ through your bottom pad layer, the thermal insulation value of the compressed snow as compared to the thermal insulation value of the near-frozen ground will vary.

TLDR: I would prefer dryish cold ground to all but the least-compressed fluffy dry snow. The wetter the ground, the more I'd go with lightly-compressed snow.


Bruce Traillium

[Tipi Walter]

Good take on it, Bruce.

I have set up on shallow snow before but prefer to dig to ground level in anything above 2 inches. In the Southeast we don't have low level "packed snow" below a two foot layer of "fresh snow", and so it's possible for us to dig out to the ground even in deep snow. We have "sort of" winters.

But many winter backpackers are standing on 6 or 8 feet of compacted snow and can in no way dig out to the ground, hence the need to create a packed snow platform using either a shovel or snowshoes.

In my location I just can never get that packed level platform as others get further north. With laborious boot stomping I still end up with ruts and lumps and impossible sleeping positions. The perfect scenario is as with the OP's situation: Start out with little to no ground snow, set up on the ground, let a giant snowstorm hit and savor your on-the-ground tentsite. Sit put for 4 or 5 days until the snow melts and enjoy the only warm cozy dry nest in a 10,000 acre cold world of white. Then after the snow melts to 4 inches, strike camp and hike 7 or 10 miles to another campsite.

[The Cleaner]

I left last Monday to hike the section from Allen Gap to Hot Springs to check on trail conditions for the Carolina Mtn. Club. Lots of snowdowns and 3' snow drifts.it took me 5 hours to hike the 3.5 miles to Spring Mtn. shelter. I made it to Hurricane Gap by 5pm and camped there on the shoulder of the road.Here's a few pics.022.JPG023.JPG062.JPG057.JPG033.JPG046.JPG

[Tipi Walter]

I left last Monday to hike the section from Allen Gap to Hot Springs to check on trail conditions for the Carolina Mtn. Club. Lots of snowdowns and 3' snow drifts.it took me 5 hours to hike the 3.5 miles to Spring Mtn. shelter. I made it to Hurricane Gap by 5pm and camped there on the shoulder of the road.Here's a few pics.022.JPG023.JPG062.JPG057.JPG033.JPG046.JPG

You aptly show the winter conditions which make backpacking in the Southeast so difficult---deep snow and as in Pic 1 the hateful Snowdowns whereby brush on the trail collapses making forward movement very difficult. Any mileage fever gets snubbed pretty fast in such conditions and so backpackers either bail to the closest road for a motel stay or pull hellish 3 mile days and work hard to set up the next night's camp. Repeat for the next 7 days etc.

I like the pic of your Svea stove in the tent vestibule---you are a brave man and these stoves tend to flare high when priming and when lighting after priming. The Svea 123 was all I ever used for 20 years but upgraded to the MSR Simmerlite.

Also like your Seagull MSR 2 liter titanium cook pot, one of my faves and you don't need a pot holder as the lip never gets hot.

And I recognize the Sangean yellow WX radio with weather band---had a couple over the years and they stopped working for no apparent reason.

[The Cleaner]

You aptly show the winter conditions which make backpacking in the Southeast so difficult---deep snow and as in Pic 1 the hateful Snowdowns whereby brush on the trail collapses making forward movement very difficult. Any mileage fever gets snubbed pretty fast in such conditions and so backpackers either bail to the closest road for a motel stay or pull hellish 3 mile days and work hard to set up the next night's camp. Repeat for the next 7 days etc.

I like the pic of your Svea stove in the tent vestibule---you are a brave man and these stoves tend to flare high when priming and when lighting after priming. The Svea 123 was all I ever used for 20 years but upgraded to the MSR Simmerlite.

Also like your Seagull MSR 2 liter titanium cook pot, one of my faves and you don't need a pot holder as the lip never gets hot.

And I recognize the Sangean yellow WX radio with weather band---had a couple over the years and they stopped working for no apparent reason.

I solved the flare-up problem by putting a ring of fiberglass woodstove door gasket material around the base of the burner stem.It holds the fuel closer to the stem letting it heat faster.I got this fix from the Classic Camp Stove web forum group.I met 4 hikers that day,2 who were pushing on and 2 who were bailing at Allen Gap. Blizzard and Speedstick were staying and I've seen where Speedstick somehow made it to Erwin on Friday,but Blizzard is still MIA.

[rafe]

Casey, I like the way you summarize "What worked" and "What didn't." Way to go!

[Casey & Gina]

I left last Monday to hike the section from Allen Gap to Hot Springs to check on trail conditions for the Carolina Mtn. Club. Lots of snowdowns and 3' snow drifts.it took me 5 hours to hike the 3.5 miles to Spring Mtn. shelter. I made it to Hurricane Gap by 5pm and camped there on the shoulder of the road.

Thanks for sharing! Sadly the snow is almost all melted here now. The weather got quite warm, then rainy - amazing how fast 30" of snow can disappear. Glad to have gotten out to enjoy it when it was fresh. I can't say I'm eager to hit up soggy muddy trails that still have lots of slippery ice patches and slush though, at least not until I get some better boots. What kind of pack do you have?

[The Cleaner]

Thanks for sharing! Sadly the snow is almost all melted here now. The weather got quite warm, then rainy - amazing how fast 30" of snow can disappear. Glad to have gotten out to enjoy it when it was fresh. I can't say I'm eager to hit up soggy muddy trails that still have lots of slippery ice patches and slush though, at least not until I get some better boots. What kind of pack do you have?

It's a Camp Trials New Horizon external frame pack.I bought this one to replace the first one just like it.The 1st one made it about 4000 miles till I discovered a crack in a weld.The latter one was purchased in 1989.I tried a few internal frame packs but just couldn't fit all of my winter gear into them.Also the panel loading front zipper allows access to everything without taking much out I like being able to keep my tent,sleeping bag and pad on the outside of my pack.Seems like for me that when packing up a camp it's much easier using a frame pack.

[Casey & Gina]

A few clarifications and updates:

so for a thru hike I am thinking about getting a lighter Hilleberg model that can deal with whatever is likely to hit us outside of actual winter without weighing as much.

I ended up getting a Hilleberg Anjan 3GT. It seems just perfect for what it is and our needs, and compliments the Keron nicely. The huge GT extended vestibule seems nice since there is only one vestibule on this model, and 3-pole tunnel tents are said to be the strongest. The overall weight including a footprint is 6lbs, so it's not the lightest, but for the benefits it offers I feel it is a great deal. A non-GT version would be lighter of course, and an Anjan 2 would be sufficient for most 2-person camping or even solo use with a weight of only 4lbs. Doesn't compare to the low weight of our Big Agnes tent, but I'd trust it a heck of a lot farther and it offers a lot more comfort. Hope to take it out for a quick test some time soon but probably won't get any real use out of it until later in the spring.

[quote]They worked very well in the hard and rocky soil, although I did manage to bend one that was being difficult (easily straightened with a hammer once I got home, could have been field-repaired with a rock).

Too be clear the bent peg was a slight C-shape to the overall peg, rather unlike a sharp bend in one place as will happen with V-pegs or tri-pegs. It took a lot of hammering to make straight again, but wasn't a hard job. It went to show me that even bent, I could have continued to use the peg indefinitely as it's strength was not compromised. Titanium nail pegs seem awesome. Only downside? Half an ounce (15g) each, and I need 18 of them for the Keron... Still, this is a small weight penalty and the drastically increased strength and durability is well worth it.

* Sleeping Bag (Feathered Friends Condor 0 w/4oz overfill) - Kept us pretty warm when wearing our wool baselayer, and had an abundance of space.

I really should have made more effort to praise Feathered Friends here. The overall design of the sleeping bag was great, with two cords that go through the top of the bag and can be tightened up from the center to cinch it down around your neck. The hoods zipper onto the groundsheet, but the snaps line up, so you can snap the hoods to the bags to keep the bag down close to your neck which makes a big difference. The snaps do not hold all that well under a lot of strain, but are easy enough to re-affix. Since we had the baby in the sleeping bag sharing one of our hoods, we usually only had one of the snaps towards the center snapped, which worked well enough unless somebody rolled over and caused it to unsnap. I think that adding a toggle and loop in the middle of the bag and groundsheet may be a good longer-term option, but so far it was not enough of an issue to make me want to modify anything. Unlike our last sleeping bags, the zippers almost never catch, and are also not a source of drafts since there is an ample draft baffle on each side. The Pertex Shield fabric on the outside was a great reassurance - at one point we spilled a small amount of water on the bag and it just sat there until we could wipe it up with a camp towel.

I am now convinced that for winter backpacking, good waterproofed boots are a must. I am inclined to follow Tipi Walter's lead here and will likely order Zamberlans for us.

I was surprised to see that REI is now carrying two models of Zamberlans, so if nothing else, you can go try them on to figure out what size is best for you. The GTX Guide boots they offer seem to be a good choice, though I'll probably end up ordering a model directly from Zamberlan that they don't resell.

There are design differences between the men's and women's versions of the Prana Zion pants, and while the men's version is fantastic, the women's version is sadly a lot worse. Unfortunately, we were not able to find a men's version of the pants that fit my wife in stock at REI, or we'd have switched to them. We will have to pursue this further or modify the pants to work better, as she was unable to keep them adjusted properly to stay up without being a constant annoyance.

I found a pair of 30x30 men's Prana Zions that fit her perfectly - problem solved and she's much happier with them! Hopefully Prana will fix a future version of these for the women's model.

* Rain Gear (pants, none) - I'd really like some water-resistant pants to add to our kit. Not a skirt but actual pants. A skirt may do in warmer weather but when tromping through snow, pants seem ideal. Outdoor Research makes Helium pants for men, but sadly not for women. May be able to find a men's pair that fits my wife well though. It would also be ideal if we could find or make a waterproof suit for the baby to go over his wool and down layers, for when we want to venture out in the snowfall without taking the carrier and it's rain cover.

We ended up getting Outdoor Research Helium Pants. They seem great and I look forward to testing them out. For the baby, we got an Oakiwear Trail rain suit. Overall, it's a good design, but has two fundamental flaws. First, it's a waterproof garment but uses a standard zipper - water seeps through it at an alarming rate. I contacted Oakiwear and they let me know that their new 2016 model, arriving in stock this month, has a waterproof zipper instead. Thank goodness. The second issue is quite minor - the seams are all taped, but there is a tag sewn to one of the seams, and the tape goes over the top of the tag, leaving the seam below the tag unsealed. This should be easy enough to fix ourselves, and Oakiwear said that in the future, they will be switching away from using tags and just printing information on the inside of the garment directly.

* Wool Gloves (Icebreaker Sierra 200gsm) - Under the Revel mitts we wore Icebreaker Sierra gloves. These were better than nothing but were overall a disappointment that resulted in freezing fingers, especially when holding poles while snowshoeing. I think some heavier weight wool glove liners are in order (maybe the Icebreaker Apex ones), but probably having some down mitts would be a good idea as well.

I forgot to mention that I also took a pair of non-insulated leather gloves. I actually used them quite a bit, but without the Revel mitts, and they ended up soaking wet and not getting used again. Since then I discovered the Smartwool Ridgeway gloves and they are awesome! Of course, we'll need to take care they don't get wet by using them under the overmitts in rain or snow, but the combination of a wool lining and soft goat leather outer is very comfortable and should be tough enough to stand up to all sorts of tasks on their own.

[Casey & Gina]

It's a Camp Trials New Horizon external frame pack.I bought this one to replace the first one just like it.The 1st one made it about 4000 miles till I discovered a crack in a weld.The latter one was purchased in 1989.I tried a few internal frame packs but just couldn't fit all of my winter gear into them.Also the panel loading front zipper allows access to everything without taking much out I like being able to keep my tent,sleeping bag and pad on the outside of my pack.Seems like for me that when packing up a camp it's much easier using a frame pack.

I agree completely, as an external frame user myself after a number of trials with other packs. I will have to check out the design of yours - these things fascinate me.

[TNhiker]

I was surprised to see that REI is now carrying two models of Zamberlans, so if nothing else, you can go try them on to figure out what size is best for you. The GTX Guide boots they offer seem to be a good choice, though I'll probably end up ordering a model directly from Zamberlan that they don't resell.

on my way to maryland a few years ago, i stopped at like 4 REIs to see what models of Zamberlans they carried (as all stores dont carry the same models)....


i finally found a pair at the college park maryland REI that fit me well, and that i liked.......

and to be honest, they might be the best boot i have bought in 30 years........

[Casey & Gina]

on my way to maryland a few years ago, i stopped at like 4 REIs to see what models of Zamberlans they carried (as all stores dont carry the same models)....


i finally found a pair at the college park maryland REI that fit me well, and that i liked.......

and to be honest, they might be the best boot i have bought in 30 years........

Interesting...I guess things change a lot over time. They didn't carry any in the stores here last year, and the person at the store told me they had never heard of them and that they just got them in stock.

We both found them to fit quite well, better than other brands, although they are definitely stiff boots that will require breaking in to be comfortable.

[TNhiker]

They didn't carry any in the stores here last year,

yeah....

i wanna say that the college park one was the only store that had the model i was looking for............i researched it on REI's website, and then you if you select the model, theres a tab that says "find in store".......

and thats what i did....

the REIs that i stopped at, were on my route to columbia so they werent necessarily outta the way for me..............

although they are definitely stiff boots that will require breaking in to be comfortable.

i didnt have any problems breaking them in..............i used them right from the box to do 15 or so miles and they were comfortable the whole time....

most boots nowadaze break in alot easier than boots from the yesteryear..........when one would have to put softener on the leather and things like that...

[Casey & Gina]

Got some lightly-used $300 Zamberlans at an REI Garage Sale event for $15, and have been stomping around in them daily for over a year now, including lots of trail time. Definitely the way to go for footwear!

[Casey & Gina]

HD Helium pants ripped when I slipped in the rain. Fixed but not impressed overall - they don't breath well enough. A trekking umbrella + lighterweight wind shell work MUCH better and the wind shell can be used in a lot broader conditions. The previous sentence as true on a skateboard as on the trail, btw.

[saltysack]

HD Helium pants ripped when I slipped in the rain. Fixed but not impressed overall - they don't breath well enough. A trekking umbrella + lighterweight wind shell work MUCH better and the wind shell can be used in a lot broader conditions. The previous sentence as true on a skateboard as on the trail, btw.

If your looking for awesome cheap ul wind pants check out these...


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