Are Permit dates ENFORCED?

[nsherry61]

. . . Nsherry- don't call bs on my LNT practice. If you knew and met me, you wouldn't. I'm a certified LNT trainer . . .

I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to call BS on your LNT practice. I was calling BS on the idea that somehow your LNT practices entitled you to side-step the permit quota system. And, if you are a certified LNT trainer, you should be the first person to appreciate that there is no such thing as truly LNT and the added impact of too many people is still an issue.

And, for what it's worth, I'd like to give a "SHOUT OUT" to takethisbread for his beautifully and eloquently stated contribution to this thread. Well said!

[Kookork]

To OP:
First let me answer your original question: from around 5 blogs of 2015 that I followed there were a couple who were politely asked by some kind of PCT authority to show( and maybe prove) that they started the trail when they were supposed to. What could have happened if they were not remains unanswered because they followed their start date.

I personally booked for upcoming April 11 not because I thought it was appropriate but because of many logistic issues that I need to address( one being my Visa) . If I had no issue with logistics ,my preferred date was around early May. I really don't know what an average hiker would do when they reach to Kennedy meadow sooner than start of June. My guess is that some might bypass Sierra and some might wait in KM until it is passable for average hiker. I guess I don't push my pace until KM hoping that by the time I am approaching Sierra the snow is manageable.

[Mags]

You may find that the early may permit will be worth it's weight in Gold as we watch the snow develop in the Sierra. I also would reco sticking with your start date, not on ethical grounds but rather because it is probably a better start date.

This! If you average 20 miles a day overall (very doable for most PCT hikers) , you should finish about mid-September. Perfect time to be hiking and a relaxed pace overall.

Neat little, and free, tool for planning your hike BTW https://www.pctplanner.com/

Enjoy!

[Starchild]

LNT is not a one size fits all (as, for example, trail maintainers violate LNT all the time in their maintenance of the trail) and should not be a reason in itself for the OP to exclude himself from the early start (the permit system and it's legal implications may be), as it would be a benefit to many the OP encounters to the LNT cause for the OP to be among them IMHO.

Overall the trail may suffer less impact overall if the OP goes in the main bubble of the OP is helpful of spreading the cause of LNT to those around him.

[lonehiker]

There was a thread ref. the permit system and the enforcement of said system last year. I will let the OP do the search but it shouldn't be hard to find. Unless it has changed since last year (or if I'm flat wrong) it is an attempt for the PCTA to enact an "voluntary" permit system. I'm sure that because it doesn't have any bite to it, the PCTA probably would give permission to start on a date other than your permit date (speculation on my part). That being said, in the spirit of "protecting" the trail and the hiking experience, a person should probably adhere to their date.

But, to claim that you are day hiking, to justify your disregard for permit start date, when in fact you were attempting a thru-hike, is blatantly unethical. That being said, I personally don't care one way or the other simply making an observation.

[Dogwood]

Do I need to start on the day my PCT Long-distance Permit says? Will it be enforced at the southern terminus?
Yes, you need to start on the day and location that you are permitted for.
The PCT community and most thru-hikers really care about the PCT and the experience it provides. You understand that the best way to minimize the effect of your presence on the environment and other hikers is to voluntarily comply with all best practices, rules and regulations regarding the trail. Having 118 people start their long-distance trip on the same day – as it happened in 2014 – puts significant pressure upon fragile desert ecosystems and the very experience you are hoping to enjoy. The first principle of Leave No Trace is “Plan Ahead and Prepare” and picking a travel time that minimizes the concentration of people (all of who will camp, drink water and leave human waste) is a critical component of being a good steward of the land.
For those that need a little more incentive to “do the right thing”, the Cleveland National Forest, approximately 14 miles from the border, is the first place where travel permits are required. Crest Runners, who are Forest Service employees, will be out on trail making contact with PCT travelers and they will have access to law enforcement officers. Voluntary compliance is by far a better way to operate than a system of increasing regulations and enforcement. It frees up resources for making this experience better, rather than reacting to visitor use problems.
How many Long-distance Permits have been issued?
Permit numbers will be provided at the end of the year. It’s important to understand that the number of permits issued is not the actual number of people who end up starting their trip (or finishing). This year, the Crest Runners will be assisting with monitoring the attrition rate of PCT Long-distance Permit holders.
Thru-hikers sometimes start as late as August heading southbound and we continue to issue permits for the entire trail through June and July. Section-hike permits continue to be issued well into the fall for people hiking long sections in Southern California.
Please read our page on visitor use statistics for more information.

[Coffee]

But, to claim that you are day hiking, to justify your disregard for permit start date, when in fact you were attempting a thru-hike, is blatantly unethical. That being said, I personally don't care one way or the other simply making an observation.

I never claimed any such thing in my conversations with PCTA or Cleveland. They knew what I was doing and worked with me to come up with a solution that was legal and proper and made logical sense in practice. I do not care one bit about your opinion. I do care about the opinions of people actually entrusted with the care and maintenance of the trail.

[Dogwood]

http://www.pcta.org/discover-the-tra...ce-permit-faq/

After all that how about going SOBO for a bit from a different starting TH than the Campo/Mexican Border and then flipping back up to go NOBO for the rest of your hike? Seems like the current PCT Thru-hiker 500 mile or more permit is issued by starting TH quotas.

Don't know who will be doing the enforcing of permits other than the Crest Runners who are Forest Service employees but you'll likely run into Border Patrol as well at or near Campo. BP has an office in Campo. Regardless, Forest Service employees will have access to Law Enforcement and LEOS are in the area with solid response times if you act intentionally shady!

With the daily permit quotas already being booked solid limited at 35 daily from March 30 to May 7 as of today for Campo/Mexican Border TH starts you might consider yourself fortunate. I agree with others. The PCT is the type of thru-hike where time can be made up by working yourself into the thru-hike. I wouldn't stress about the May 5 start time. That's NO WAY to thru-hike! Going to be a crowd at Kennedy Meadows stacked up if the snowpack assumes some sense of historical regularity than it has recently and PCTers continue to hike as run away mindless freight trains giving little thought to their Sierra entrance timing. I also agree this might very well be the yr to start later although still early to precisely tell about snowpack.

[Coffee]

There's going to be a big pileup at KM given how early people are starting. I'm really surprised that the bubble is centered on mid April rather than May 1. I am really hoping to go SOBO but if it looks like I won't be able to start around July 1 as planned I might opt for a late NOBO start around May 15. I need to finish in four months. It will be an interesting year for sure...

[MuddyWaters]

Look, I knew I was gonna catch flack on here for the question. I probably come off as some d bag. Im not. I promise, I KNOW rules apply to me! My job in the summers for the last TEN YEARS has been on Trail crews, building and maintaining hiking trails. I worked on the octbfor 6 months, and I know the impact of erosion and people.

Id rather the conversation not turn into an argument over the purpose of permit dates. Or LNT or impact of numbers, they're all intriguing and valid conversations, but on this thread, I was asking a basic question, and whether there's a moral argument to Be had, theres still a question: are permit dates enforced.

Let me be the judge of me.

Sorry. You DO think the rules shouldnt apply to you, you are willing to make an exception for yourself, because it suits YOU. Pretty damn clear. You justify it to yourself as well that you will be LNT, wont have an impact, and do work building and maintaining trails. You are .....special. I dont care one way or the other, you are right, one person wont make a difference, but I will call a spade a spade, when Its apparent.

You might have meant something like" is this a requirement, or just a suggestion , similar to the ATC registration?" But what you asked was more like "Will I get caught and fined if I start earlier than my permit?

It doesnt matter what anyone here says. Do what the PCTA tells you, ask them.

Do I need to start on the day my PCT Long-distance Permit says? Will it be enforced at the southern terminus?
Yes, you need to start on the day and location that you are permitted for.
The PCT community and most thru-hikers really care about the PCT and the experience it provides. You understand that the best way to minimize the effect of your presence on the environment and other hikers is to voluntarily comply with all best practices, rules and regulations regarding the trail. Having 118 people start their long-distance trip on the same day – as it happened in 2014 – puts significant pressure upon fragile desert ecosystems and the very experience you are hoping to enjoy. The first principle of Leave No Trace is “Plan Ahead and Prepare” and picking a travel time that minimizes the concentration of people (all of who will camp, drink water and leave human waste) is a critical component of being a good steward of the land.
For those that need a little more incentive to “do the right thing”, the Cleveland National Forest, approximately 14 miles from the border, is the first place where travel permits are required. Crest Runners, who are Forest Service employees, will be out on trail making contact with PCT travelers and they will have access to law enforcement officers. Voluntary compliance is by far a better way to operate than a system of increasing regulations and enforcement. It frees up resources for making this experience better, rather than reacting to visitor use problems.
How many Long-distance Permits have been issued?
Permit numbers will be provided at the end of the year. It’s important to understand that the number of permits issued is not the actual number of people who end up starting their trip (or finishing). This year, the Crest Runners will be assisting with monitoring the attrition rate of PCT Long-distance Permit holders.
Thru-hikers sometimes start as late as August heading southbound and we continue to issue permits for the entire trail through June and July. Section-hike permits continue to be issued well into the fall for people hiking long sections in Southern California.
Please read our page on visitor use statistics for more information.

[DuneElliot]

One thing that has me completely confused about this whole argument is actually the debate with whether PCT permits are enforceable under the law. It was my understanding that a PCT long-distance permit basically combined all the permits you need for every section along the trail into one (not including CA fire and Canada entry permits).
With this in mind this is not actually a LEGAL issue about when you start or are on the PCT...with the only exception being the entry dates into a certain area eg. You're start date was May 5th, but you started 2 weeks early and reached a wilderness area 2 weeks early and therefore your permit is not valid. As such, if you acquired all the permits yourself there would be no start date limitation per se. It seems that the PCT permit limit per day is honorary (since they only started it within the last couple of years) and moral vs legal.

Understand that this is not me giving credence to one side or the other of this debate, just that it isn't black and white either.

[Dogwood]

I pulled two different PCT Thru-hiker 500 miles+ Permits, one in 2006 and one in 2011. At those times, they certainly were enforceable under the law. Mine were checked three times in 06 and three times in 2011. I don't know how many otehr times they were looked at without my knowledge as I had mine attached to the outside of my backpacks in plain sight.

One should not even remotely hint at, consider, or suggest a permit isn't enforceable when one seeks to be legal and have respect for the trail and others? There are damn valid reasons why the PCTA in cooperation with other PCT supporters are taking this permit and quota route.

[Kookork]

I pulled two different PCT Thru-hiker 500 miles+ Permits, one in 2006 and one in 2011. At those times, they certainly were enforceable under the law. Mine were checked three times in 06 and three times in 2011. I don't know how many otehr times they were looked at without my knowledge as I had mine attached to the outside of my backpacks in plain sight.

One should not even remotely hint at, consider, or suggest a permit isn't enforceable when one seeks to be legal and have respect for the trail and others? There are damn valid reasons why the PCTA in cooperation with other PCT supporters are taking this permit and quota route.

Dear DOGWOOD:
The question is not about the necessity of obtaining a permit .Of course a hiker needs a permit ,even the OP would have his permit when he hikes PCT. It is about following the exact starting date.
Let's not forget there is a significant difference between somebody who attempts a thru hike without a Permit and somebody who has the permit but for some reasons can't or wont follow the start date.

[MuddyWaters]

Dear DOGWOOD:
The question is not about the necessity of obtaining a permit .Of course a hiker needs a permit ,even the OP would have his permit when he hikes PCT. It is about following the exact starting date.
Let's not forget there is a significant difference between somebody who attempts a thru hike without a Permit and somebody who has the permit but for some reasons can't or wont follow the start date.

No, theres not.

The permits are intended to limit trail use to quotas based on start date. Its no longer just the convenience for the thru hiker it used to be when there were less hikers.

This was developed in conjunction with the federal government and NPS and individual areas national parks and forests the trail traverses.
PCT is a National Scenic Trail and falls under the authority of the NPS. Everywhere. Violations are federal violations.

Go try to hike from any trailhead in the sierra without a valid permit. You will be fined. Its all about the date on the permit. Same arguement applies, once in wilderness, you dont have a schedule, can go anywhere, etc. What differnce would the date make? It makes a difference. Its all about the start date, because quotas are based on averages and use statistics. You cant predict one persons movements based on start date,but collectively, you can predict the average movements of all.

The only subversive angle attempted to be played here is that an enforcement agency might not be able to tell. This might be true , by a day or two. But weeks , yeah, they can tell. This isnt their first rodeo, they have been checking and enforcing permits for a long time in these areas. Rangers take this stuff seriously, its their job.

[Coffee]

The questions are valid and should be discussed because they expose a public policy issue that probably needs to be reconsidered near the Mexican border. PCTA is not a government entity but rather a trail association made up of members (including me and many others here). PCTA has been granted authority by several of our alphabet soup of federal land management agencies to issue wilderness permits to trail users that cover hikers who wish to camp IN LOCATIONS THAT WOULD NORMALLY REQUIRE PERMITS. However, not all locations near the southern terminus require permits at all, with the exception of the Hauser Wilderness. The public policy issue is whether this needs to change. Should greater portions of the trail corridor near the southern terminus require permits for camping? It would seem like this might need to be the case if the environmental issues are such that serious harm is taking place during a compressed six week period each spring.

Not talking about about an issue won't make it go away. Hikers can and should ensure that they are following the law as well as the intent of the PCTA as well as the federal agencies that have granted PCTA authority to issue permits. PCTA and the National Forest near the border are trying to do a hard job without the force of law behind the, and perhaps this needs to be changed. Otherwise the PCTA permit itself may be a thing of the past in the not so distant future. People who care about the trail will follow the process and work with the PCTA and the local authorities. People who don't care will not. And they probably won't face consequences. That's a public policy issue. Saying that it shouldn't be discussed won't make it go away.

[Coffee]

PCT is a National Scenic Trail and falls under the authority of the NPS. Everywhere. Violations are federal violations.

In practice the authorities charged with law enforcement along the PCT are those associated with the land management agencies through which the trail passes - BLM, National Forests, and National Parks (and perhaps others in our alphabet soup of government entities). If you are saying that permits are required on the entire PCT you are definitely mistaken. The PCTA itself points out that permits are only required in certain locations along the trail corridor.

Again, this is an important public policy issue. The specific question should be: Is it appropriate for the Cleveland Naational Forest (and other land agencies near the border) to require permits for the PCT corridor for at least part of the year - say from March 15 to May 15? If so, one would need either a PCTA long distance permit or a Cleveland National Forest permit to camp in backcountry locations anywhere for the first X miles north of the border during those two months. Rangers would be able to patrol, fine and escort people out who do not have appropriate permits for backcountry camping. This would be exactly like how it works in the Sierra Nevada. If you do not have a valid permit from PCTA, Inyo, Yosemite, etc, the Rangers can and will fine you and have the force of federal law behind them.

[Coffee]

Link to PCTA permit information page:

http://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/permits/

Excerpt:

Some places on the Pacific Crest Trail require camping permits. Generally, an overnight permit is required in National Forest Wilderness Areas, National Parks and California State Parks. Many places on the Pacific Crest Trail do not require a permit. This is the case on non-Wilderness National Forest land and land administered by the Bureau of Land Management.

[Kookork]

No, theres not.

The permits are intended to limit trail use to quotas based on start date. Its no longer just the convenience for the thru hiker it used to be when there were less hikers.

This was developed in conjunction with the federal government and NPS and individual areas national parks and forests the trail traverses.
PCT is a National Scenic Trail and falls under the authority of the NPS. Everywhere. Violations are federal violations.

Go try to hike from any trailhead in the sierra without a valid permit. You will be fined. Its all about the date on the permit. Same arguement applies, once in wilderness, you dont have a schedule, can go anywhere, etc. What differnce would the date make? It makes a difference. Its all about the start date, because quotas are based on averages and use statistics. You cant predict one persons movements based on start date,but collectively, you can predict the average movements of all.

The only subversive angle attempted to be played here is that an enforcement agency might not be able to tell. This might be true , by a day or two. But weeks , yeah, they can tell. This isnt their first rodeo, they have been checking and enforcing permits for a long time in these areas. Rangers take this stuff seriously, its their job.

By your comment it seems you are saying that there is not much difference between hiking the PCT without a permit and hiking it with a permit but not following the exact starting date. I beg your pardon. The former leads to trail overuse and the later leads to trail congestion on certain areas.

Let's not forget that a hiker with a permit is going to hike the PCT from point A to point B and his/her impact on the trail would not be that different if he hikes it on Saturday or Tuesday ( although the daily quote can decrease the compact and following it is our responsibility).

The notion that there is no significant difference between these two groups does not register for me.

[burger]

In practice the authorities charged with law enforcement along the PCT are those associated with the land management agencies through which the trail passes - BLM, National Forests, and National Parks (and perhaps others in our alphabet soup of government entities). If you are saying that permits are required on the entire PCT you are definitely mistaken. The PCTA itself points out that permits are only required in certain locations along the trail corridor.

Again, this is an important public policy issue. The specific question should be: Is it appropriate for the Cleveland Naational Forest (and other land agencies near the border) to require permits for the PCT corridor for at least part of the year - say from March 15 to May 15? If so, one would need either a PCTA long distance permit or a Cleveland National Forest permit to camp in backcountry locations anywhere for the first X miles north of the border during those two months. Rangers would be able to patrol, fine and escort people out who do not have appropriate permits for backcountry camping. This would be exactly like how it works in the Sierra Nevada. If you do not have a valid permit from PCTA, Inyo, Yosemite, etc, the Rangers can and will fine you and have the force of federal law behind them.

Your continued casting of doubt on this permit system is not helpful for hikers. We get it--you think that hikers are currently allowed to start whenever they want because the permit is not legally enforceable. Here's why you're wrong:

1) If hikers ignore the permits, there will be hundreds or even thousands starting the weekend of kickoff. That is too many. The trail would be seriously damaged by that many people hiking at once. So, by questioning the validity of the permits, you are basically saying: "go ahead hikers, leave when you want. I don't care about damage to the resource." That's irresponsible. There will probably be over 3,000 people starting NOBO thru hikes this year. The desert is too fragile to handle that many people unless they are well spread out and limited to a smallish number per day.

2) It doesn't take a new law for the permits to become enforceable--just new regulations. The Forest Service puts out new regulations of this type all the time. If a lot of hikers violate their permit dates or hike without permits, I guarantee you we will see a JMT-type enforcement system within a few years, with arrests, expulsions from the trail, or fines. And I'm okay with that.

3) Ultimately, there are just too many hikers. PCTA has already recognized this. There is no constitutional right to do a thru-hike. Given that the window for starting a NOBO thru-hike on the PCT is fairly limited, a hard permit system will be a de facto quota system. And that's fine--more people should be doing SOBOs or flip-flops. If there's not currently, there should be a lottery system for starting dates, like NPS uses at a lot of parks. Anyone who doesn't get a permit or a date they like is free to hike any of the other long-distance trails in the country or do an alternative itinerary.

And if you disagree with me, you're free to pound some Virginia sand (see what I did there? ) Also, weren't you going to stop following this thread?

[Coffee]

It would take someone with severe reading comprehension problems or a desire to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative to suggest that I believe that 3000 hikers should all start from Campo on the same day or that this is a good outcome in any way. We are all (presumably) long distance hikers who care about the trail and do not want to see it damaged. Start from that premise and a rational discussion can occur.

There is a difference between what one thinks SHOULD be the case and what actually IS the case. Unfortunately, right now the situation with respect to what is legally permitted at the southern terminus of the Pacific Crest Trail has holes like a slice of Swiss cheese. Given that the OP asked about the legal situation, one would think that the discussion would center on that question - what is the legal case. One can then obviously supplement that with what one thinks SHOULD be the legal case or what one has the RESPONSIBILITY to do above and beyond what is legally required. That's fine. Casting doubt on someone's motives and twisting their words is not fine.

Your second point - that new regulations should be put in place is EXACTLY what I suggested in my earlier post which you might have realized if you had bothered to read it. We need enforceable permit systems at the border, whether implemented through new laws or regulations is not the point. I am OK with that which is why I suggested it - and I'm more than OK with that - I think we need exactly that.

It seems like some here believe that even discussing what is legally the case is somehow subversive if it causes people to disregard the permit start date - it's like SHHHHH!!!! Don't talk about something that is, in fact, current reality because then people will not realize the Swiss cheese nature of the problem. Sorry to burst this line of thinking but: (1) people are not stupid and will find this information easily online if they look; (2) Facebook has several groups devoted to the PCT and more than several people, including some ADMINS of those groups, openly advocating flouting the permit system; (3) we are all adults and should be able to have a frank discussion of the facts.

My hope was to ENCOURAGE people to not only follow what is legally required but ALSO to hold themselves to a higher standard, as I did when faced with a problem with my permit. Had PCTA and Cleveland national forest said to me, "Hey, you can hike from Campo to Lake Morena the day before your thru permit but we really think that's against the spirit of the system", I personally would have done as they wished even though it would have been legal to do otherwise. These entities even gave me the OK to camp in the backcountry outside the Hauser Wilderness but I opted to hold myself to an even high standard by camping in a public campground with toilets and hardened sites, thereby reducing my impact to zero. By the way, the same 50 quota per day applies to starts not only at the border but anywhere from the border to Mt. Laguna, so my entry permit was fully legitimate starting at Lake Morena, just as it would have been from Campo.

By having rational and good faith discussions about current reality, how we should hold ourselves above the legal minimum, and how the regulatory system should be changed, we are in fact helping to ensure the environment more than if we say "SSSHHH!!!" the system is full of Swiss cheese regulations but let's pretend that it isn't so whoever is asking the question blindly assumes we are correct and doesn't look elsewhere.