What R-Value mat for PCT thru hike?

[Subie Love]

Hello everyone! So I've only used a Neo-air Xlite and zlite sleeping pads before. I used the Zlite on my AT thru hike and it worked flawlessly. Im wanting to go lighter for the PCT and I'm looking at the Mammut Alpine Mat. They list the weight as 135g or 4.7 ounces but the R-value is only 1.2. Would I feel a noticeable difference going from 2.6 to 1.2? Is it worth it to shave off about 6 or 7 ounces? Thanks!

[Subie Love]

Here is the mat in question:

http://www.mammut.ch/US/en_US/B2C-Ca...0360-0898-1015

[takethisbread]

Better question is this: would you notice 6 ounces in your pack?
Or if you trimmed off 3-4 panels off your zlite would you notice3 or 4 ounces?
The pct is colder at night than the AT, at least for a 1000 mile .

Im starting to think that we chase ounces that might not matter. I can't tell the difference between a 12 lb pack and a 15 lb pack. They both feel light and 15lb will not really slow me down at all. Now a 26 lb pack will be a difference that will affect my pace and endurance.

Another question: will a cold uncomfortable sleepless night affect your pace? I'd say it definitely will. Go with light, but don't sacrifice warmth and comfort for a few ounces. Good luck!


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[Subie Love]

No, I wouldn't be able to feel the difference immediately but if the lighter product doesn't affect sleep, why not save 6 or 7 ounces? I'm definitely not willing to be shivering all night to save the weight though. If an R-value of 1.2 will keep me warm though, yeah I'll definitely go with it to save any weight that I can.

[burger]

1.2 seems exceptionally low for the PCT. I used a 32-degree bag and a z-lite (R value around 2 back then, I think) and had several very cold nights in the Sierra. I can't imagine going with anything thinner than a z-lite, and the pad your talking about offers about half as much insulation.

There are lots of options for lightweight pads out there, but you should probably be looking for an r value of 2 and up. The extra couple of ounces will be worth every gram.

[Subie Love]

Gotchya, thanks! There is a 1/2 length Gossamer gear pad that has an R-value of 2 something and only weighs 6 or so ounces, maybe I'll try that to see if I like it. I'm not sure if I'll like the half length though. If all else fails, I'll stick with my zlite, I'm just trying to find something comparable that'll be lighter.

[Coffee]

My Neoair xlite was fine on the first 1/3 of the PCT last year which included some cold nights including a very hard freeze at Cottonwood Lake - water bottles entirely frozen so had to be low-mid 20s at least. I've also used the Neoair in mid-high teens once. This was coupled with a marmot helium 15F bag. My main concern with the Neoair has always been its apparent fragility but it has held up well for me for probably 50 nights so far. It's just that it if catastrophically fails and your far from anywhere it could really be rough.... That's why I envy people who can tolerate CCF pads.

[nsherry61]

Go hybrid. Cut Z-lite to just over your torso and hips, then, if your still concerned about going full length, use a piece of thinner pad below your hips (and above your shoulders if you want it that long). . . Or just cut the z-lite and use you pack under your legs.

[Malto]

What is your hiking window? A May 1st to mid September would be a different answer than a March 1st to October 1st. Another consideration is robustness of an inflatable. A foam mat won't get a hole in it but I know for me there is a huge difference in comfort so I'm willing to deal with that risk. I would go xlite but I probably have a different set of criteria with comfort being above a couple weight.

[garlic08]

One thing not considered yet is ground temperature, the only factor you need to consider in pad R-value. Air temperature should not affect your decision.

On the AT in spring, you might sleep on a plank shelter floor with sub-freezing air below the floor, and very seldom on snow. Here is where you need pad insulation. On a three-season PCT hike, you start out in desert in late spring, hike the high Sierra in early summer, and finish in late summer. I don't think you need much R-value on a PCT hike. A Z-lite worked fine for me on the PCT, not so well on a shelter floor of the AT the one time I tried it. Man, that was cold.

[colorado_rob]

Just one more vote, having hiked out west almost my entire hiking life: Even in mid-summer conditions if I'm at any significant altitude (like above, say, 9K, like in the Sierra's) I find using a relatively thin closed cell foam (like your R1.2, probably about 3/8" thick) just ain't quite enough for me from a warmth standpoint (let alone cushy-comfort), whereas a R2 inflatable (like the old neoair's) seems to be just enough. I wonder what the absolute lightest R2 pad (either foam or inflatable) might be (the xlite is R3.2)?

[takethisbread]

One thing not considered yet is ground temperature, the only factor you need to consider in pad R-value. Air temperature should not affect your decision.

On the AT in spring, you might sleep on a plank shelter floor with sub-freezing air below the floor, and very seldom on snow. Here is where you need pad insulation. On a three-season PCT hike, you start out in desert in late spring, hike the high Sierra in early summer, and finish in late summer. I don't think you need much R-value on a PCT hike. A Z-lite worked fine for me on the PCT, not so well on a shelter floor of the AT the one time I tried it. Man, that was cold.

Have U ever been on PCT? Ground temps at 8000 feet and above is much colder than ground temp on AT in most cases. I found the zlite to be just enough for the coldest nights on each trail. I mean an inflatable would have been better, sure, but Ccf or anything less than the zlite or of similar or higher r rating would be too cool for me. The PCT It's much colder in the morning. Not even close. In the summer I got below freezing temps several times. In the desert night temps dip into the mid 30's and often below with regularity. The ground is cold. Especially with snow on it.


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[garlic08]

Have U ever been on PCT? Ground temps at 8000 feet and above is much colder than ground temp on AT in most cases....

Yes ('04 NOBO thru), and if you re-read my last sentence, you'll see we've had different experiences. No big surprise there--I've noticed hikers on the same trail on the same day can meet up in the evening, swap stories, and have had totally different hikes!

[takethisbread]

Yes ('04 NOBO thru), and if you re-read my last sentence, you'll see we've had different experiences. No big surprise there--I've noticed hikers on the same trail on the same day can meet up in the evening, swap stories, and have had totally different hikes!

Here here. I can here you. I am a very warm sleeper. I went with NO sleeping bag on AT from Damascus to New Hampshire. On PCT I froze with a 13 degree sleeping bag. Desert morning is hard to deal with and the Sierra of course is a challenge keeping warm. This year shapes up to be very snow filled for those attempting


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[Brup Bup]

I'd say bring a warmer pad, but I'm only a "lightweight" hiker not an "ultralight" hiker weight savings are great and all, but good sleep is totally necessary to keep healthy on the trail.

[Dogwood]

Did you thru the AT with a Zlite Sol or Original, short or full length? Mu guess is the Short version which is commensurate with dropping 6-7 oz? Next, inform of us of your PCT thru agenda ie; timeframe. Because as Malto says direction, start times, anticipated pace/finish, etc matter.

How about not trapping yourself into a one pad mindset? Why? You might need variable insulation(R-Value) under you depending on your thru agenda and the rest of your kit especially the rest of your sleep/sheltering system. IMO, choosing to drop pad wt ignoring these other factors gets you into a problematic wt is everything possibly stupid light mindset.

For example, instead of going with one fixed R value insulation system the entire PCT find ways to easily amend or alter the system's R value, pad wt system, sleep system, shelter, etc according to need as conditions, kit, tactics, techniques, weather, etc change over several months.

[Subie Love]

Did you thru the AT with a Zlite Sol or Original, short or full length? Mu guess is the Short version which is commensurate with dropping 6-7 oz? Next, inform of us of your PCT thru agenda ie; timeframe. Because as Malto says direction, start times, anticipated pace/finish, etc matter.

How about not trapping yourself into a one pad mindset? Why? You might need variable insulation(R-Value) under you depending on your thru agenda and the rest of your kit especially the rest of your sleep/sheltering system. IMO, choosing to drop pad wt ignoring these other factors gets you into a problematic wt is everything possibly stupid light mindset.

For example, instead of going with one fixed R value insulation system the entire PCT find ways to easily amend or alter the system's R value, pad wt system, sleep system, shelter, etc according to need as conditions, kit, tactics, techniques, weather, etc change over several months.

I used the full length SOL on the AT. For the PCT I'll be going NOBO probably be starting late March or early April and going for 6 months like the AT as well. Thats not set in stone though.

Can you give some examples of amending and altering my sleep system to adapt to various conditions?

I could carry two different types of pads but that gets back to the weight issue. Are you saying have a different pad to bounce ahead and swap them out as I see fit? I suppose something like that is a possibility but kind of seems like a hassle. What would/did you use for a PCT thru hike? I like the one pad mindset, assuming that the pad will generally work for the whole trail. It might not be the absolute best for every scenario but for simplicity sake, I'd prefer to use one pad.

And the more I think about the pad issue, the more I find myself just leaning towards using the Zlite SOL again. I got everything else down to a weight I'm really happy with. I don't really want to use something I going to wonder about while I'm out there. I know the zlite and it works great.

[Dogwood]

I used the full length Sol on the AT. For the PCT I'll be going NOBO probably be starting late March or early April and going for 6 months like the AT as well.

Can you give some examples of amending and altering my sleep system to adapt to various conditions?

I could carry two different types of pads but that gets back to the weight issue. Are you saying have a different pad to bounce ahead and swap them out as I see fit? I suppose something like that is a possibility but kind of seems like a hassle. What would/did you use for a PCT thru hike? I like the one pad mindset, assuming that the pad will generally work for the whole trail. It might not be the absolute best for every scenario but for simplicity sake, I'd prefer to use one pad.

And the more I think about the pad issue, the more I find myself just leaning towards using the Zlite SOL again. I got everything else down to a weight I'm really happy with. I don't really want to use something I going to wonder about while I'm out there. I know the zlite and it works great.

Well, you're saying you want to drop wt? Here are suggestions. You crunch the numbers. One possible idea is doing as Nsherry says. Trim down your Z Lite Sol to roughly something torso size. That cuts out 6-8 ozs alone from a 14 oz Z Lite Reg length. Note this pad has a reflective surface to add warmth back to you. Get some of that warmth aspect back where the CCF pad was cut away by introducing a modular system of adding a cheap less than 2 oz mylar or equally light wt Gila Platinum reflective Mirror Finish ground sheet under the Zlite Sol. Now, take all your gear including maps, empty backpack, empty stuff sacks, etc and put them under your legs. Throw in some chemical heat packs that can be used for either your hands and/or feet in your sleeping bag or quilt when you expect cold temps. In your bag/quilt wear a beanie, gloves(light wt), LS 1/2 zip shirt, silk wt bottoms, some warm clean comfy socks and maybe you vest or jacket.

You also could do a Shortie Neo Air(8 oz with a higher R value of 3.2) with a 1/8 Gossamer Gear CCF pad(2.3 -2.8 oz, not immediately sure of the R-value added) underneath that boosts R value(and protects against pointy desert plants) and/or the mylar/Gila Platinum mirrored window film(basically mirrored polycro, very light wt!.). This is a modular tweakable system that is less wt offering greater warmth than your current Z Lite Reg length at a R value of 2.6. This is the system I did up to KM with a WM 35* Highlite only erecting a customized MLD Spinnaker Grace tarp only once in all the southern PCT up to KM. I cowboyed all of but 5 nights the whole PCT in 4.5 months. My sleep system wt worked nicely in total with what I had available in 2006.

You simply tweak things in your sleep system, deleting and adding to your core pad, as it gets colder/warmer or you find yourself sleeping at some higher elevations on cold clear nights. My CCF pad weighed 2.3 oz and rolled and then easily folded; ie it was not a bulky stiff CCF pad. This is the way I get greater usage out of one pad - by tweaking the system, rather than buying a greater number of more specialized pads for narrow occasions.

One could also throw in a UL bivy(4-7 ozs, adds 5-12*) or silk liner(4.5 oz, adds about 5*) that adds warmth and may make it possible to go with less of a pad, no ground sheet at all, lighter wt/higher temp rating sleeping bag/quilt. Remember, by sleeping enclosed in a tent you boost sleep warmth by about 5-10 * So, sleeping warmth and what's effective is not just about R value of a single pad. It's better to consider the entire integrated sleep/shelter/apparel system where you can have some further break down into smaller modular components especially if you seek to be saving wt, versatility, and have a limited gear budget.

Some PCTers do switch kits out or at least amend some pieces at Kennedy Meadows on a NOBO PCT thru. Then after some pt, maybe Tahoe or Bridgeport Ca amend their kits again.

As noted by Takethisbread, the southern PCT - the Mojave Desert isn't all flat or hot 24 hrs a day during your anticipated hike window. It can get well below freezing even in April. I had about 6-8 nights below freezing on a 2006 PCT NOBO starting on April 13 which all occurred before the Sierras. Two nights it dropped to 19* and 21*. Deserts can have very wide temp swings between the hottest parts of the day and the coldest night time lows, more than 70+*!

One more significant thing although I feel like I'm beginning to say this again and again. In my strong guesstimation you'll do more to save wt on a PCT thru by wisely dialing in water logistics rather than nitpicking about sleeping pad wt!

Hope that helps.

[Subie Love]

You also could do a Shortie Neo Air(8 oz with a higher R value of 3.2) with a 1/8 Gossamer Gear CCF pad(2.3 -2.8 oz, not immediately sure of the R-value added) underneath that boosts R value(and protects against pointy desert plants) and/or the mylar/Gila Platinum mirrored window film(basically mirrored polycro, very light wt!.). This is a modular tweakable system that is less wt offering greater warmth than your current Z Lite Reg length at a R value of 2.6. This is the system I did up to KM with a WM 35* Highlite only erecting a customized MLD Spinnaker Grace tarp only once in all the southern PCT up to KM. I cowboyed all of but 5 nights the whole PCT in 4.5 months. My sleep system wt worked nicely in total with what I had available in 2006.

One more significant thing although I feel like I'm beginning to say this again and again. In my strong guesstimation you'll do more to save wt on a PCT thru by wisely dialing in water logistics rather than nitpicking about sleeping pad wt!

Hope that helps.

Thanks, that does help! I feel like I'm in the minority about air pads though, I actually dont like sleeping on my neo air. I think is what I'll do is cut down my zlite to torso length and do the GG pad underneath with the coated polycro. Basically do the same thing you said just swap the main pad for the zlite. That should be a bit lighter and have a much better r value.

And that is so true about the water! I'll have the capacity for 5 liters and I cringe at carrying that much. On the AT rarely did I have more than 1.

[Dogwood]

We're all ignorant and in the minority to some degree about some thing so don't feel you have to live up to comparing yourself with anyone else.

One more thing I and I've seen other PCTers do on clear crisp nights is drape tarps or tents quilt style over the top of sleep systems or add to underneath insulation to add some warmth. Watch for condensation though. I did that more than a few nights in Socal. The PCT weather for a typical NOBO thru is much less wet than an AT NOBO thru so you can adjust your kit with that in mind and possibly lower your gear wt.