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  1. #1
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    Default Trail runner mm drop

    I know this isn't a running forum. My wife and I just started to run trail and road to hopefully better our miles when we get out for some weekend sections. I'm running in wildcat 3.0 with a 12mm drop. Is there any way to know other then trying a pair of altras if I'd benefit from a lesser or 0mm drop shoe? Issue being I was in PT about 15 months ago and could barley hike 5 miles with a day pack. Now we average about 10 to 12 on weekend trips and have done up to 15. I want to average 15 and start hitting 20 so we can complete more of the at and lt as we don't have the option of not working. I've had pain for years. Do I just push through with what I have? The wildcats are super comfortable and I can't wait to hike in them.


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    Going to a 0 drop shoe isn't going to automatically increase your running abilities. The point of 0 drop and minimalist shoes is to promote forefoot/mid foot striking vs heel striking. Getting away from heel striking will increase your running but is a task to kick the habit of heel striking and won't automatically happen just because you are I minimalist shoes. Get the Altras, work on the transition. That's plenty info on the interwebs. Just picking up minimalist/0 drop shoes to run your mileage with no transition phase is an easy way to get an injury. I could go on for a bit feel free to pm me. I've been on a hiatus since I hit the "real world" but used to log my fair share of miles


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  3. #3

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    If you do switch shoes, break your feel/legs in gradually by starting with only a few miles at a time. You will be using your muscles differently and could replace a pain in one place with pain in another.

    What kind of pain are you dealing with? Shins? Hamstrings? You may need to go back to PT if you are still dealing with the same pain.

    The ability to do more miles comes with experience. Your body can get used to a lot, though there may be limits to what you can do comfortably. Doing more miles may simply come down to starting your day earlier and being willing to hike/run later. i.e. - to do 20 mile days, you hike for 10 hours, plus break time. So starting at 6 am will give time to do 20 or more before dark. If you do this frequently, your body will usually adapt. I found when thruhiking though I could do 20s pretty easily, but my feet never did well at over 25. Many of my friends had no issues though with doing the higher miles though. YMMV

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    My pain that is hurting me is my right hip. Was in PT for my knees as it seemed to be in the center of my knee cap but turned out to be a case of strengthening my quads and stretching regularly. Years ago going to a chiropractor I was told one leg was shorter then the other and that one would be adjusted. I've over come my shin splints and can stretch out most pain except my hip paon


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    I went too fast to zero drop shoes and ran into an achilles issue, nothing serious, but didn't realize it would happen. I just had an occasional sharp fleeting pain that went away when I went back to my other shoes. I have not tried to get used to zero drops just yet.

  6. #6
    CDT - 2013, PCT - 2009, AT - 1300 miles done burger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jj dont play View Post
    Going to a 0 drop shoe isn't going to automatically increase your running abilities. The point of 0 drop and minimalist shoes is to promote forefoot/mid foot striking vs heel striking. Getting away from heel striking will increase your running but is a task to kick the habit of heel striking and won't automatically happen just because you are I minimalist shoes. Get the Altras, work on the transition. That's plenty info on the interwebs. Just picking up minimalist/0 drop shoes to run your mileage with no transition phase is an easy way to get an injury. I could go on for a bit feel free to pm me. I've been on a hiatus since I hit the "real world" but used to log my fair share of miles
    +1 Zero-drop shoes are a stupid fad. My wife switched to zero-drop shoes for running and got a bad achilles injury shortly after. I'm not aware of any scientific studies showing that runners get fewer injuries in zero-drop shoes (there are studies showing that "barefoot" type shoes produce different biomechanical forces than traditional shoes, but those are just theoretical. I haven't seen anything saying that minimalist shoes are better for your hips, shin splints, etc.). I am a mid/forefoot striker, and I wear well-cushioned shoes with plenty of drop.

    If you have some sort of biomechanical issue that is causing your hip pain, changing shoes may not help. Have you done PT for your hip? Or seen an orthopedist?

  7. #7

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    I would go to a hardcore running store to have my biomechanics professionally analyzed. Communicate all that you've posted here. Not everyone has the running form issues 0 drop shoes are supposed to fix. Your issues could be related to several factors. Don't assume or throw darts at a dart board blindfolded. And, Altras is definitely not the only 0 drop shoe available. .

    IF it's been determined a 0 drop shoe would help you there would be a transitional period going from a 12 mm to 0 drop. You might find some of the Altra models have less cush than the Wildcat 3.o. But, it depends on which specific Altra model you might consider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burger View Post
    +1 Zero-drop shoes are a stupid fad. My wife switched to zero-drop shoes for running and got a bad achilles injury shortly after. I'm not aware of any scientific studies showing that runners get fewer injuries in zero-drop shoes (there are studies showing that "barefoot" type shoes produce different biomechanical forces than traditional shoes, but those are just theoretical. I haven't seen anything saying that minimalist shoes are better for your hips, shin splints, etc.). I am a mid/forefoot striker, and I wear well-cushioned shoes with plenty of drop.

    If you have some sort of biomechanical issue that is causing your hip pain, changing shoes may not help. Have you done PT for your hip? Or seen an orthopedist?
    I have had PT for my knees only. When I squat they crack really bad. They said the crack would go away as its excess air or something of the sort but it hasn't. The pain has dispersed though hence leading me to thinking I can run.


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    As a thru-hiker of the PCT and the AT, and as the owner of a ultramarathon/running coaching business, and an elite ultra runner myself, I'll say that form is paramount to all footwear. Worrying about drop is over-rated and takes the emphasis off of what is REALLY important, which is FORM. Keeping your running form focused on the hips/core and NOT the feet is what enables people to run injury free. Worrying about footstrike contributes to plantar fasciitis and other maladies like Achilles tendon strain. It's awesome you've found a shoe that you seem to like in the wildcat. If they work, stick with them. Zero drop is garbage. Also, check with a PT and see if a quality insole like the green superfeet might be of benefit.

    Best of luck to you!

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    My podiatrist is a big fan of zero drop shoes; he's an ultramarathoner/triathlete. As others have said, switch to zero drop gradually. You should see a doctor about your issues, either an orthopedist or sports podiatrist -- ask for podiatrist recommendations at a good running shoe store or running clubs. Most of the zero drop trail shoes with wide toe boxes don't have soles with the traction of some non-zero drop trail shoes or hiking boots. I like the Altra Lone Peak and SOM http://www.somfootwear.com/. The SOM and Altra Olympus 2.0 now has vibram soles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TUNEDVWGTI View Post
    As a thru-hiker of the PCT and the AT, and as the owner of a ultramarathon/running coaching business, and an elite ultra runner myself, I'll say that form is paramount to all footwear. Worrying about drop is over-rated and takes the emphasis off of what is REALLY important, which is FORM. Keeping your running form focused on the hips/core and NOT the feet is what enables people to run injury free. Worrying about footstrike contributes to plantar fasciitis and other maladies like Achilles tendon strain. It's awesome you've found a shoe that you seem to like in the wildcat. If they work, stick with them. Zero drop is garbage. Also, check with a PT and see if a quality insole like the green superfeet might be of benefit.

    Best of luck to you!
    Could I please get a little more info on the focus of my hips and core when I run? When I'm healed up hopefully this weekend will I see what you mean when I get out there?


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    Here was my transition. C-lites (10 mm drop) to Helios (6 mm drop) to Altra Lone Peak 2.5. Each season I essentially graduated to a lower drop shoe. With that being said, I find the Altra's way more comfortable than the La Sportivas I have had. Take it slow if you really want to try them. I do find that I run faster in them (not talking minutes here haha).

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    Read the book Cool Impossible. In it there is plenty of talk about form. More importantly, there are core, hip, leg and upper body workouts detailed. I also like the P90X workout series, but they are a much longer time commitment.

    Quote Originally Posted by sethd513 View Post
    Could I please get a little more info on the focus of my hips and core when I run? When I'm healed up hopefully this weekend will I see what you mean when I get out there?


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    Altra, zero drop my feet appreciate it.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by burger View Post
    +1 Zero-drop shoes are a stupid fad. My wife switched to zero-drop shoes for running and got a bad achilles injury shortly after. I'm not aware of any scientific studies showing that runners get fewer injuries in zero-drop shoes (there are studies showing that "barefoot" type shoes produce different biomechanical forces than traditional shoes, but those are just theoretical. I haven't seen anything saying that minimalist shoes are better for your hips, shin splints, etc.). I am a mid/forefoot striker, and I wear well-cushioned shoes with plenty of drop.

    If you have some sort of biomechanical issue that is causing your hip pain, changing shoes may not help. Have you done PT for your hip? Or seen an orthopedist?
    go out and get a copy of Born to Run and you may think differently about the potential for reduced injuries.

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    Altra's have a little set of instructions that they include with their shoes that lays out a plan for transitioning to a 0 drop design. You have to do it slowly to get your body used to it.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevep311 View Post
    go out and get a copy of Born to Run and you may think differently about the potential for reduced injuries.
    Yeah, I'll take actual science over evangelism, which is what that book's author is mostly doing. There is no good scientific evidence so far that minimalist shoes reduce injuries in runners--it's just anecdotes and theoretical data on forces (and even that data is somewhat equivocal).

    And as for walking, I've never seen a scientific study that looked at zero-drop shoes vs regular shoes. Walking is not the same as running, so even if minimalist shoes were better for running, there's no reason to think they're better for walking.

    I wish the minimalist shoe people would stop trying to tell everyone else what to do. I run in plush hokas, I hike in plush NB trail runners. I haven't had a significant injury in years. It took me a long time to find a system that worked for me. The only advice people should be taking on running/hiking shoes is: find something that's comfortable and fits well. If you have problems, try something different. There are no easy answers that apply to everyone. (Check out this article, especially towards the end: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/0...running-shoes/ )

    But since some people like anecdotes, here's one: a couple wearing Vibram Five Fingers started the CDT a day ahead of me. They ditched the shoes before the end of Day 1. YMMV.

  18. #18
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    First rule is if you like the shoe and it works for you...

    You mentioned your goal is to hike longer days, running is a part of training for that? Altra's are great for mid to large volume feet, and great for letting your feet spread/swell/move during a long day of hiking with a pack on.
    That part of it has nothing to do with the drop, but the upper and overall design of the shoe which is unique in it's own right. To me that has always been Altra's greatest strength.

    As fer zero drop...
    Flip your shoe over- do you have wear in odd spots? Excessive heel or off center wear in any direction?

    If you have good form and no medical issues you shouldn't see odd wear spots, but relatively centered wear under the fore/midfoot. With the exception of heel wear from frequent elevation change/downhill braking, or some toe wear from the same. This should be the case in a 12mm shoe or a zero, or even a negative drop shoe like a Newton.

    The zero drop part is no magic bullet, but I personally prefer it and it can help some folks with certain issues.
    I personally agree to an extent with others, that perhaps the act of retraining yourself and paying attention to form when you switch is the "magic" of zero drop shoes, not the drop itself.

    Overall-
    Sounds like you need to see a pro to help evaluate your current form/gait/etc.
    You may need a doc for your hip- that's not an issue that can be addressed here- and if running is hurting it, perhaps running is counterproductive to your goal of hiking more and you should simply hike more.

    You may be an excellent example of someone who may benefit from trekking poles (as opposed to just getting them to get them).

    While running is good cross training for hiking- I personally think that hiking is great cross training to reset a bad running form.
    Spend 15-20 minutes a few times a week simply walking barefoot, it will help you with both.
    And if you do go with a zero drop shoe- it will assist your transition greatly- although simply taking your shoes off is a still free.

    Doing "more miles" is simply a function of doing "more hours". Learning good form, a good gait, a steady pace, and some discipline in eating/drinking/stopping are all ways to help keep gas in your tank and the cruise control set to have a longer day. A twenty is simply 2 miles an hour for 10 hours.... slow and steady wins the hiking race every time.

    The miles come over time- literally. As you hike more you'll be able to hike longer, and the miles come on their own.

    One parting thought- discussed here and backed up by nearly everyone in backpacking or ultra running:
    Break the barrier. Find a spot, a track, paved path, anything easy. Set up your car as an aide station if you need it.
    Start early on a Saturday morning and simply walk, run, jog, crawl whatever until you meet your mileage goal (20).
    Even if you spend all day, take breaks, hike into the night, go for 30 hours... cross your finish line.

    Somewhat bewildering but very common- simply crossing that barrier even once- makes it amazingly easier to do it again.
    Barring some medical issue- I'd bet simply removing the mental wall will bring you closer to your goal than new shoes.

  19. #19
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    I went with a 12mm road running shoe as my trail runners were a little to firm on the pavement. I've been going to the chiropractor and my hip seems to feel much better. I'm able to run 5 miles 3 times a week if we aren't hiking. This weekend we are going to try a big hiking day. Time management is the way I see it working. All in all I'm just glad to be outside enjoying nature.

    I did try a pair of 3mm drop trail shoes when I was trying out some road shoes and they were amazingly comfortable. I could feel my muscles working differently though so I kept with 12.


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