RANT Warning: "Look it up...Search"

[Lnj]

I'm sorry, but I have a rant. It simply must be said, even if it is taken down immediately thereafter, I will feel better.

May I ask why so many people on here respond to whatever question is being asked with "If you learn how to search..." or "look it up", or "there are 1000 threads on this already is you search for it".? I have two points to make on why this drives me nuts, and then I will effectively shut up and sit down.

1.) Personally, I only peruse WB during the day, killing in-between time at work, and I have read many other posters say the same. With that said, I don't have countless hours on my hands. Just a few minutes here and there to find the answer to a question I have. This is a forum/site designated for serious hikers, whether it be thru-hikers, section hikers or weekend warriors or even wanna be's, so it stands to reason that if I go on to this site and ask a question of all the many many, what I would consider "authorities" on the subject, that I am IN FACT searching, and looking it up. I am going to the place where many pros congregate to chat about what I want to know about. I consider coming to this site the very act of "looking it up". Why must I dig down to the first grain ever sprouted on a subject to get a respectful answer? Not only do people answer with "look it up", but they are often quite rude about it. Why is that?

2.) If it is only acceptable to ask a question and have it discussed thoroughly just one time on this site, then how is this site even still alive? I am sure if one were to search, every question that can be dreamed up has already been asked and answered at some point before here. Every thought that can be thought has been expressed. Every opinion represented. For those of you who have been on here for years and have thousands of posts, do you seriously expect to come here and read something fresh and new? For those people who have hiked the AT over and over, do you plan to come here and learn something now? Surely not. This keeps going because there are new people with old questions and view points that want answers to old questions from the people who truly know what the heck they are talking about. If that isn't true, then just publish a "whiteblaze book" of questions and answers once and for all and close the site down.

3.) Again, for the hikers who have hiked the AT over and over and a hundred other trails, known and unknown, if you are not coming on here to help the "baby hikers" then what do you hope to achieve? Your wisdom and knowledge is invaluable to us all and we are so glad you are here, but not if you eat our face off for asking what you deem to be a stupid question or a question that has already been answered before. When people behave that way it strips the of their value to the WB community and they just become an antagonist. What's the point?

Rant concluded. I am done.

[rafe]

Hi Lnj. My feeling is that blogs ought to be used to discuss or inform on matters that can't be easily found via Google or other printed or online references. Or to discuss items that are inherently subjective. So if someone asks, for example, how far is it from NOC to Fontana, I'm not going to belittle that person, but I'm not going to go out of my way to help either. I think it's reasonable to have done a bit of research on one's own before asking others to educate them. There are vast resources available these days, online or at Amazon or one's favorite bookstore. Anyone seriously thinking of a long hike ought to do some basic research before asking questions that have been answered a thousand times over.

The site may educate newbies, for sure, that ought to be part of the mission. But if there's not enough to keep the old-timers interested, they'll drift away, and who'll be left to educate the newbies?

Just my two cents, anyway.

[Old Grouse]

That’s fair comment. It certainly would be nice if WB members in general had as much patience as some demonstrate. This actually strikes home for me. My wife is quick to remind me that she’s a “Yale-trained problem solver,” but she’s loveably inept at concocting a simple inquiry on Google and she’s made a habit of just asking me the answers to things I couldn’t possibly know. To which I often reply, “I don’t know…you could Google it,” but then end up doing so myself in frustration.

[Rain Man]

So, Lnj, you don't think describing for someone who is legitimately searching how to accomplish their goal is a decent thing to do? Or are you ranting over style, not substance. Or both. Or, just in a foul mood.

To me, it's a balancing act, both in substance and style. I answer lots of "newbie" questions on WB, and many not so newbie, plus I post my own.

But ... when it appears someone is simply being totally lame and lazy and telling the rest of us to "jump" for them? I'm not so sure it's unfair to direct them to the nearest lake to "jump" into.

I actually learned a Google search function from someone describing to a questioner how to find their answer, by using the "site:whiteblaze.net" command. I appreciated their sharing their wisdom.

Ever hear of the adage "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime"?

Now, if you're ranting about style, and how snippy or snarky some such "helpful" posts are, just let it go. There are some of those, yes, but don't sweat the small stuff.

[dudeijuststarted]

Until the mods indicate that system maintenance has become too expensive to introduce duplicate threads, I say "post away." Everything about the hiking industry, and the trails themselves, changes every year. It makes sense to ask questions pertinent to the times. I'd hope experienced hikers are coming here to assist hopefuls. As in any internet forum, there will be the grumpy types.

[colorado_rob]

Until the mods indicate that system maintenance has become too expensive to introduce duplicate threads, I say "post away." Everything about the hiking industry, and the trails themselves, changes every year. It makes sense to ask questions pertinent to the times. I'd hope experienced hikers are coming here to assist hopefuls. As in any internet forum, there will be the grumpy types.

Agree, well said. Post away! I too am slightly annoyed, most of the time, when people answer with the statement: "Just do a Forum search".

On the other hand, some beginner questions are so poorly worded and incomplete... it does tax patience sometimes...

[Roamin]

First, I value the opinion of the seasoned hiker and the experienced poster. They have knowledge I can only hope to gain one day. I read many thread for the enjoyment and the sound advice. I also agree there are plenty of sources of information available to us such as Google and Amazon. WB should be commended for bringing together all of the hikers and information it has. I have not found another single source with such a wealth of information.

However, I too think the “learn to search” response is just inappropriate. I have received that sage response myself. I was tempted to give an eloquent reply, but thought better of it.

I have looked through the pages of content on WB. I find some of the organization to be non-intuitive. Therefore, I do not find some of the information I am looking for. I hope that as I move around the site more, I will learn its organization and be able to better navigate the site.

I do use the WB search function. I have found the search engine to be inadequate. My recent search for shuttles in Rockfish Gap, VA area garnered me 52 pages of responses for me to look through, covering all AT states and almost all conceivable topics. I was forced to start another tread asking for the information. I am sure I will get the “learn to search” reply for asking the question.

The “learn to search” response is just poor form. I assume any question asked was searched for and the answer not located. If you are offended that someone asked a question which, in your opinion, could be searched for, show some courtesy and don’t answer, just move on.

[illabelle]

Lnj,
I actually enjoyed your rant. I found it quite entertaining.
Like you and a few others, I dislike the "look it up, ya lazy bum" responses. I've learned that if somebody asks a "dumb" question, and I don't feel like answering, well guess what, I don't have to. Better to ignore a question than to treat people with contempt.
It's easy to assume that everybody knows how to navigate and conduct themselves online, but that's just not true. Courtesy, respect, and giving people the benefit of the doubt don't cost a thing, but they're worth a lot.

[Deadeye]

Many of us will "say" things with our keyboard that we wouldn't say in person, or at least can't say it the same way we might verbally, and it comes across as mean-spirited. Guilty. I'd rather answer someone that can't or won't use the search feature than someone who can't or won't decide for himself what socks to wear.

[MuddyWaters]

The reason for encouraging searches for common topics, is someone will get far more information or opinions, and get it immediately, than a single post will get them over a couple of weeks.

Its in the posters best interest as well because of this.


This sites search is the worst Ive ever seen, but google does a good job.


Some questions are so obvious and easy to determine, its clear a poster has made zero attempt to find an answer .

[Lnj]

I guess I was just saying that looking here, on the WB and asking a host of experienced people about something they know without having to event blink an eye of think hard is in itself a form of "looking it up". Just rename yourself Google. I agree that if it bugs you that a question was thrown out to the hiking world in general and not you personally, just click on and ignore it. It's the insulting, disrespectful and snide responses that I don't like or understand. But my rant is done and yes, I do feel much better now.

And to answer Rain Man, I suppose it is truly a combo of all 3: style, substance and I have been in more tolerant moods.

[Slo-go'en]

It does get a bit old and tiresome answering the same stupid questions again and again and again. Especially questions where the answer is readily found with minimal searching, just buying a guide book, or visiting links on the WB home page. But it's a lot easier just to ask the question and get 50 different answers.

I've been thinking of changing my user name to "tour guide"

[QiWiz]

" Maybe life isn't about avoiding the bruises. Maybe it's about collecting the scars to prove we showed up for it." - Priseller.

I like your quote. Here's another: "Suffering builds character. The more I suffer, the more of a character I become." - QiWiz

In terms of your "rant", I always have the option of responding or not to another's post. If I see something that seems to indicate the poster did not even bother to do some basic looking around before posting, IMO, I always have the option of letting the post go unanswered. No need to be annoyed.

[Offshore]

OP raises some good issues. Is this an information board? If so then is there really a need to repeat the same basic information with each new class of thruhikers or new section or dayhikers? Probably not the most efficient means of information distribution. Besides, a board layout is really a suboptimal format for a reference work. Add to that a lot of specific information offered is form secondary sources. The truth is that one is actually is better off doing their own research and getting first-hand information from manufacturer/park/ATC/trail maintainer sites.

That leaves us with a place for opinions. A message board is a great format for that - but personally, I really don't care. I just don't have the time to slog through 100+ page treads on Jurek littering and CSI Whiteblaze - Inchworm Edition, or the saga of BSP. Besides, a lot of regulars here seem to be better trolls than hikers. Add to the mix the healthy population of those that view themselves as the elder statesmen and who are often wrong but never in doubt, and it gets old fast. Then next group of players are certain moderators who are quick to shut down members or threads for no other reason that they may disagree with an opinion.

I've been spending less and less time on WB and have not renewed my donor status because the more I learn, the less relevant the site seems to be. There are a lot of great members (and even some moderators), but its a lot to slog through to get any new information or interesting commentary of personal value. My suggestion to the OP is to look at the special interest subreddits on Reddit.

[Offshore]

OP raises some good issues. Is this an information board? If so then is there really a need to repeat the same basic information with each new class of thruhikers or new section or dayhikers? Probably not the most efficient means of information distribution. Besides, a board layout is really a suboptimal format for a reference work. Add to that a lot of specific information offered is form secondary sources. The truth is that one is actually is better off doing their own research and getting first-hand information from manufacturer/park/ATC/trail maintainer sites.

That leaves us with a place for opinions. A message board is a great format for that - but personally, I really don't care. I just don't have the time to slog through 100+ page treads on Jurek littering and CSI Whiteblaze - Inchworm Edition, or the saga of BSP. Besides, a lot of regulars here seem to be better trolls than hikers. Add to the mix the healthy population of those that view themselves as the elder statesmen and who are often wrong but never in doubt, and it gets old fast. Then next group of players are certain moderators who are quick to shut down members or threads for no other reason that they may disagree with an opinion.

I've been spending less and less time on WB and have not renewed my donor status because the more I learn, the less relevant the site seems to be. There are a lot of great members (and even some moderators), but its a lot to slog through to get any new information or interesting commentary of personal value. My suggestion to the OP is to look at the special interest subreddits on Reddit.

Apologies for typos. No donor status = no ability to edit...

[rocketsocks]

I guess I was just saying that looking here, on the WB and asking a host of experienced people about something they know without having to event blink an eye of think hard is in itself a form of "looking it up". Just rename yourself Google. I agree that if it bugs you that a question was thrown out to the hiking world in general and not you personally, just click on and ignore it. It's the insulting, disrespectful and snide responses that I don't like or understand. But my rant is done and yes, I do feel much better now.

And to answer Rain Man, I suppose it is truly a combo of all 3: style, substance and I have been in more tolerant moods.

A man goes to the doctor with pains and says "doc, when I touch my knee, it hurts" Doctor checks his knee. Then the man says "and when I touch my elbow, it hurts" the doctor checks his elbow. Then the man says "and when I touch my chin, it hurts" the doctor says "wait a minute...lemme see that finger, your fingers broke"

moral of the story: get a job that allows you more search time.

[rocketsocks]

I look at it like this. This community of AT enthusiasts is an active one, there are no less than 120 people on line during the day, the search engine sucks, so ask away and hope you get a hit, more times than not you will. Like people the board has a mood that's ever changing, sometimes it's foul, sometimes it comes together with the bonds of a fierce family...don't take this stuff to seriously, it's helpful to be able to brush stuff off.

[Han Sobo]

You can see I have a low post count just joined the other day.

I have done some research but there is not a whole lot of the info I need.. Plenty info I don't think I am needing. Most which requires me to try to read in reverse and refer to entries previous to the one I am on for an accurate calculation to get the same info.

I have to say that in one day here not just posting threads of which I have done one. I have learned more then all my other efforts combined. I have also seen a small few members who in the act of being helpful can be very judgmental. Hey that's humanity we all do it. Some more then others.

Its definitely more handy if they post you up a link but some guys (not a sexist comment) just like to say something just to get their 2 cents in even if its a "well look it up" or "good luck with that" comment. Even with my low post count I too have been getting the cranky vibe from a couple posts.. One which I doubt even read my original post. I cant honestly call those sort of posters 'trolls'. They probably have had some other folk just rub them wrong and they sorta combine the next few similar posts in the same light of their judgement. (as a guess)

Thing is you skim that stuff away and you get some very helpful people here.

Looking at the number of people online, members, and guests we are bound to get a bit of all the color spectrum.

You might try this if you get a "look it up" answer, ask if they can direct you to a link. Google is very funny where you can take three words and depending which one is first middle and last you can get some extremely varied results. The wee bit of sarcasm and negativity I have seen has over all been well worth just holding my breathe for a minute or two, come back in an hour and most likely the less irritable, more patient and understanding members will have helped you out.

We are all human in that things can change like the weather as far as our outlook and general attitude.

Ps: There is a member already named Google

[Jack Tarlin]

While we're on the subject of how we can best help the new folks, I want to say this: I've talked with dozens of this year's hikers in various places in North Carolina and Tennessee, and I frequently ask them where they mainly went to for planning and preparation info for their hikes. The good news is that so many, if not virtually all of them, mentioned Whiteblaze. The not-so-good news is that a great many of them expressed dismay at how they were greeted here.......more folks than I can remember said that at times, they were made to feel ignorant, silly, or outright stupid. Instead of getting direct answers to direct questions, all too often they were hectored and lectured to by a not very helpful old-timer. I've met a ton of 2016 folks who said they felt intimidated here, and then in many ways, WB can be very tough, even unfriendly to new folks. So please, remember that we were ALL newbies once upon a time, we all had a zillion questions, and yeah, some of them might have appeared to be obvious or foolish. But the main purpose of this site is to share knowledge, experience, and useful information, especially to folks new to the world of long-distance hiking. So even if a question has appeared scores of times before, take the time, if you want, to answer it as best you can.......and as nicely as you can, too.

[Malto]

in an ideal world:
1) there would be an easy to search database of the 101 most commonly asked questions.
2) there would be a format to ask many questions such as "How long will it take me to hike the Ga section?" Without any context that is an impossible to answer question. Another financial site that I visit has a very specific format that results in MUCH more productive answers.
3) there would be a betters search function.

But, it is an imperfect world so the same questions get asked lacking the context to give a good answer. More more rant. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BEST ANYTHING! So stop asking, rant over.