RANT Warning: "Look it up...Search"

[rafe]

Apropos giving advice on the trail...

A couple of summers ago I found myself descending Mt. Mansfield (VT) early one Sunday morning, after having the entire ridgeline to myself. A few minutes down off the ridge I encountered the first hikers coming uphill. Inevitably one would ask, "how much further to the top?" You know the drill. So, to the first few, I'd give encouragement since I knew they were just minutes from being done. Continuing downhill over the next couple of hours, I was asked same the question again and again, I knew my estimates were less and less useful so after a while I'd just say something vague like, "Oh, it's a ways, yet." Most folks got the hint and grinned back. There were dozens and dozens of hikers coming uphill.

Not far from the bottom, a family group came by huffing and puffing and a little girl in the group, maybe eight or ten years old, looked at me crossly, with hands on hips and demanded, "Just how high is this mountain?" The best I could come up with was, "It's very, very high." Perhaps not the most diplomatic response, but an honest one. What else could I say?

[Five Tango]

Sadly,I have had people tell me privately that they are surprised at the attitudes on this site and are reluctant to pose questions or comments for fear of being flamed.Fact.

[Smoky Spoon]

I think you said the truth. And you said it kindly.

Apropos giving advice on the trail...

A couple of summers ago I found myself descending Mt. Mansfield (VT) early one Sunday morning, after having the entire ridgeline to myself. A few minutes down off the ridge I encountered the first hikers coming uphill. Inevitably one would ask, "how much further to the top?" You know the drill. So, to the first few, I'd give encouragement since I knew they were just minutes from being done. Continuing downhill over the next couple of hours, I was asked same the question again and again, I knew my estimates were less and less useful so after a while I'd just say something vague like, "Oh, it's a ways, yet." Most folks got the hint and grinned back. There were dozens and dozens of hikers coming uphill.

Not far from the bottom, a family group came by huffing and puffing and a little girl in the group, maybe eight or ten years old, looked at me crossly, with hands on hips and demanded, "Just how high is this mountain?" The best I could come up with was, "It's very, very high." Perhaps not the most diplomatic response, but an honest one. What else could I say?

[Smoky Spoon]

Agreed. I too have had this same issue said to me privately and it has been repeated a lot publicly. So sad as this could be a superbly useful site to all hikers.

Sadly,I have had people tell me privately that they are surprised at the attitudes on this site and are reluctant to pose questions or comments for fear of being flamed.Fact.

[rickb]

Agreed. I too have had this same issue said to me privately and it has been repeated a lot publicly. So sad as this could be a superbly useful site to all hikers.

It kind of is.

Did you set a date for your thru hike?

[Smoky Spoon]

Yes I have. I am leaving soon, for safety reasons I will not give out my exact date online publicly, but it is soon. I already paid for my plane ticket, I have my room at the Falls At The Lodge already book and am using Ron's Shuttle Service on here to pick me up at the airport and he will be picking up my fuel tablets ahead of time, as well as take me to sign in at the register at the park and then to the lodge. The next day he will pick me up and take me to the forest service road where the trail officially begins. I will be using a different trail name as well for safety reasons considering the hostility shown to me by some on here, my spouse and editor both insisted on it since I will be a female hiking alone.

For anyone needing shuttle service I highly recommend Ron, i have used him before, he is a great human being and very professional, personable and he is reliable.

Are you going out this year?

As for this site being useful, yes it kind of is at times, as I said before, I will always try to see this site as more positive than negative, and I do tell people to try and overlook the meanies. If they can do that then this site is a wealth of insightfulness for hiking, gear and especially thruhiking.

It kind of is.

Did you set a date for your thru hike?

[rickb]

Yes I have. I am leaving soon, for safety reasons I will not give out my exact date online publicly, but it is soon. I already paid for my plane ticket, I have my room at the Falls At The Lodge already book and am using Ron's Shuttle Service on here to pick me up at the airport and he will be picking up my fuel tablets ahead of time, as well as take me to sign in at the register at the park and then to the lodge. The next day he will pick me up and take me to the forest service road where the trail officially begins. I will be using a different trail name as well for safety reasons considering the hostility shown to me by some on here, my spouse and editor both insisted on it since I will be a female hiking alone.

For anyone needing shuttle service I highly recommend Ron, i have used him before, he is a great human being and very professional, personable and he is reliable.

Are you going out this year?

As for this site being useful, yes it kind of is at times, as I said before, I will always try to see this site as more positive than negative, and I do tell people to try and overlook the meanies. If they can do that then this site is a wealth of insightfulness for hiking, gear and especially thruhiking.

Congrats on putting your plan into action. No long hike on the horizon for me, but plenty of short ones with my wife, to be sure.

Not sure we define meanies I the same way-- there are many kinds of diversity.

[imscotty]

Let's face it. The Whiteblaze search function is useless. Of course you can search the site using Google, and I often do this myself. But to those who take offense to Noob questions, just skip on pass them if you don't want to take part. People come here to discuss, and a little patience would go a long way to making this a more welcoming site.

[Traveler]

This seems a little overblown in regard to assuaging a bruised set of feelings caused by a curt "look it up" response among dozens of informational responses. Apparently some folks are hypersensitive to curt answers, to the point "editors" now want to hoist the issue for whatever commercial interest there is in doing that, using surrogates to post their ridiculous scenarios designed to inflame and create an atmosphere that is far larger than actually exists.

If all one is looking for are nurturing answers or comments, full of positive affirmations and confidence building statements, they exist in great volume with most any thread on this forum. If all one is looking for are examples of curt or less than encouraging responses, they exist in most any thread as well, albeit in smaller percentage. If a dream or goal is so easily snuffed out due to a curt response or a challenge to an opinion that should be more carefully thought through from a relative stranger on an open forum, its not much of a dream or goal. One cannot accomplish much in life without internal drive to move past these small issues, there are far larger issues that will challenge these individuals than an off hand remark regardless what the pursuit is.

Much ado over not much more than left handed responses. If there are problems with these, life itself must be difficult to say the least.

[lonehiker]

This seems a little overblown in regard to assuaging a bruised set of feelings caused by a curt "look it up" response among dozens of informational responses. Apparently some folks are hypersensitive to curt answers, to the point "editors" now want to hoist the issue for whatever commercial interest there is in doing that, using surrogates to post their ridiculous scenarios designed to inflame and create an atmosphere that is far larger than actually exists.

If all one is looking for are nurturing answers or comments, full of positive affirmations and confidence building statements, they exist in great volume with most any thread on this forum. If all one is looking for are examples of curt or less than encouraging responses, they exist in most any thread as well, albeit in smaller percentage. If a dream or goal is so easily snuffed out due to a curt response or a challenge to an opinion that should be more carefully thought through from a relative stranger on an open forum, its not much of a dream or goal. One cannot accomplish much in life without internal drive to move past these small issues, there are far larger issues that will challenge these individuals than an off hand remark regardless what the pursuit is.

Much ado over not much more than left handed responses. If there are problems with these, life itself must be difficult to say the least.

This is a good post.

[Boo-Yah]

Amen! Preach it brother

I'm sorry, but I have a rant. It simply must be said, even if it is taken down immediately thereafter, I will feel better.

May I ask why so many people on here respond to whatever question is being asked with "If you learn how to search..." or "look it up", or "there are 1000 threads on this already is you search for it".? I have two points to make on why this drives me nuts, and then I will effectively shut up and sit down.

1.) Personally, I only peruse WB during the day, killing in-between time at work, and I have read many other posters say the same. With that said, I don't have countless hours on my hands. Just a few minutes here and there to find the answer to a question I have. This is a forum/site designated for serious hikers, whether it be thru-hikers, section hikers or weekend warriors or even wanna be's, so it stands to reason that if I go on to this site and ask a question of all the many many, what I would consider "authorities" on the subject, that I am IN FACT searching, and looking it up. I am going to the place where many pros congregate to chat about what I want to know about. I consider coming to this site the very act of "looking it up". Why must I dig down to the first grain ever sprouted on a subject to get a respectful answer? Not only do people answer with "look it up", but they are often quite rude about it. Why is that?

2.) If it is only acceptable to ask a question and have it discussed thoroughly just one time on this site, then how is this site even still alive? I am sure if one were to search, every question that can be dreamed up has already been asked and answered at some point before here. Every thought that can be thought has been expressed. Every opinion represented. For those of you who have been on here for years and have thousands of posts, do you seriously expect to come here and read something fresh and new? For those people who have hiked the AT over and over, do you plan to come here and learn something now? Surely not. This keeps going because there are new people with old questions and view points that want answers to old questions from the people who truly know what the heck they are talking about. If that isn't true, then just publish a "whiteblaze book" of questions and answers once and for all and close the site down.

3.) Again, for the hikers who have hiked the AT over and over and a hundred other trails, known and unknown, if you are not coming on here to help the "baby hikers" then what do you hope to achieve? Your wisdom and knowledge is invaluable to us all and we are so glad you are here, but not if you eat our face off for asking what you deem to be a stupid question or a question that has already been answered before. When people behave that way it strips the of their value to the WB community and they just become an antagonist. What's the point?

Rant concluded. I am done.

[BrianLe]

IMO a great approach would be for an extensive FAQ to be developed for WB, perhaps hierarchical by categories, with each FAQ question and response(s) having a unique URL. Then a responder could reference this as baseline stuff, something discussion could build on without feeling the need to reprise a whole lot of basic discussion. Perhaps the FAQ responses could in turn link to extensive relative threads for those that want to dig deeper. Technologically this is quite easy to do, and with a community this size it wouldn't be difficult to come up with volunteers to do the work. Or (and?) the wiki approach could be used perhaps to just crowdsource much of the work.

Quite some time ago I helped build the PCT FAQ on Postholer. Some FAQ entries are relatively simple to create, but many are not insofar as there are different approaches to backpacking issues, different opinions and styles, so if the wiki approach isn't used, the person or small group responsible for a given FAQ entry needs (MUST IMO) be sensitive to this, to give fair play to widely held views that they personally don't utilize.

Then if someone asks, for example, "What's the best starting date for an AT thru-hike" or "Can I bring my dog on the PCT", or "What's the best stove" or ... etc ... a response could start out with a FAQ link or two and discussion could proceed from there if the FAQ response wasn't plenty enough of an answer already.

What I particularly like about this is that if excellent FAQ entries resulted over time, folks looking for basic info could often get it right away, without waiting and hoping for a reply that might or might not be of real help to them.

[Smoky Spoon]

This post is what is overblown, to blatantly disregard another's feelings is not only rude and callous but to do so publicly makes one wonder, why? I mean if you thought the OP was overblown then why comment in such length and volume yourself? Seems much ado about something you consider nothing....

This seems a little overblown in regard to assuaging a bruised set of feelings caused by a curt "look it up" response among dozens of informational responses. Apparently some folks are hypersensitive to curt answers, to the point "editors" now want to hoist the issue for whatever commercial interest there is in doing that, using surrogates to post their ridiculous scenarios designed to inflame and create an atmosphere that is far larger than actually exists.

If all one is looking for are nurturing answers or comments, full of positive affirmations and confidence building statements, they exist in great volume with most any thread on this forum. If all one is looking for are examples of curt or less than encouraging responses, they exist in most any thread as well, albeit in smaller percentage. If a dream or goal is so easily snuffed out due to a curt response or a challenge to an opinion that should be more carefully thought through from a relative stranger on an open forum, its not much of a dream or goal. One cannot accomplish much in life without internal drive to move past these small issues, there are far larger issues that will challenge these individuals than an off hand remark regardless what the pursuit is.

Much ado over not much more than left handed responses. If there are problems with these, life itself must be difficult to say the least.

[Smoky Spoon]

Want to know what is so great about your post? You ACTUALLY offer solutions.....huge thank you. So wish others would take your mature and resourceful attitude.

IMO a great approach would be for an extensive FAQ to be developed for WB, perhaps hierarchical by categories, with each FAQ question and response(s) having a unique URL. Then a responder could reference this as baseline stuff, something discussion could build on without feeling the need to reprise a whole lot of basic discussion. Perhaps the FAQ responses could in turn link to extensive relative threads for those that want to dig deeper. Technologically this is quite easy to do, and with a community this size it wouldn't be difficult to come up with volunteers to do the work. Or (and?) the wiki approach could be used perhaps to just crowdsource much of the work.

Quite some time ago I helped build the PCT FAQ on Postholer. Some FAQ entries are relatively simple to create, but many are not insofar as there are different approaches to backpacking issues, different opinions and styles, so if the wiki approach isn't used, the person or small group responsible for a given FAQ entry needs (MUST IMO) be sensitive to this, to give fair play to widely held views that they personally don't utilize.

Then if someone asks, for example, "What's the best starting date for an AT thru-hike" or "Can I bring my dog on the PCT", or "What's the best stove" or ... etc ... a response could start out with a FAQ link or two and discussion could proceed from there if the FAQ response wasn't plenty enough of an answer already.

What I particularly like about this is that if excellent FAQ entries resulted over time, folks looking for basic info could often get it right away, without waiting and hoping for a reply that might or might not be of real help to them.

[Smoky Spoon]

Congrats on the triple crown, very impressive.

IMO a great approach would be for an extensive FAQ to be developed for WB, perhaps hierarchical by categories, with each FAQ question and response(s) having a unique URL. Then a responder could reference this as baseline stuff, something discussion could build on without feeling the need to reprise a whole lot of basic discussion. Perhaps the FAQ responses could in turn link to extensive relative threads for those that want to dig deeper. Technologically this is quite easy to do, and with a community this size it wouldn't be difficult to come up with volunteers to do the work. Or (and?) the wiki approach could be used perhaps to just crowdsource much of the work.

Quite some time ago I helped build the PCT FAQ on Postholer. Some FAQ entries are relatively simple to create, but many are not insofar as there are different approaches to backpacking issues, different opinions and styles, so if the wiki approach isn't used, the person or small group responsible for a given FAQ entry needs (MUST IMO) be sensitive to this, to give fair play to widely held views that they personally don't utilize.

Then if someone asks, for example, "What's the best starting date for an AT thru-hike" or "Can I bring my dog on the PCT", or "What's the best stove" or ... etc ... a response could start out with a FAQ link or two and discussion could proceed from there if the FAQ response wasn't plenty enough of an answer already.

What I particularly like about this is that if excellent FAQ entries resulted over time, folks looking for basic info could often get it right away, without waiting and hoping for a reply that might or might not be of real help to them.

[Dogwood]

This seems a little overblown in regard to assuaging a bruised set of feelings caused by a curt "look it up" response among dozens of informational responses. Apparently some folks are hypersensitive to curt answers, to the point "editors" now want to hoist the issue for whatever commercial interest there is in doing that, using surrogates to post their ridiculous scenarios designed to inflame and create an atmosphere that is far larger than actually exists.

If all one is looking for are nurturing answers or comments, full of positive affirmations and confidence building statements, they exist in great volume with most any thread on this forum. If all one is looking for are examples of curt or less than encouraging responses, they exist in most any thread as well, albeit in smaller percentage. If a dream or goal is so easily snuffed out due to a curt response or a challenge to an opinion that should be more carefully thought through from a relative stranger on an open forum, its not much of a dream or goal. One cannot accomplish much in life without internal drive to move past these small issues, there are far larger issues that will challenge these individuals than an off hand remark regardless what the pursuit is.

Much ado over not much more than left handed responses. If there are problems with these, life itself must be difficult to say the least.

Sanity. It's making a choice to be offended or not. Some facets of U.S. culture believe they have the constitutional right that others are obligated not to be perceived as ever being offensive.

[rickb]

Sanity. It's making a choice to be offended or not. Some facets of U.S. culture believe they have the constitutional right that others are obligated not to be perceived as ever being offensive.

If for no other reason, threads like these are good reminders that some people have very different life views than those we think make sense.

I liked this take by Bret Easton Ellis (from a few years ago) but I suppose some would find issues with it.

http://www.vanityfair.fr/culture/liv...on-ellis/15837

[Smoky Spoon]

I am impressed, that is the shortest answer I have ever seen you write. Keep that up and your reputation as the man who loves to hear his self speak will be ruined old friend.

How have you been? Have heard from you in a while?

Sanity. It's making a choice to be offended or not. Some facets of U.S. culture believe they have the constitutional right that others are obligated not to be perceived as ever being offensive.

[Smoky Spoon]

Or some just have more common sense than others. And manners. Common sense and manners are not entitlements, they are examples of class and education. I loved that article too and sort of thought it could be applied to you and rafe....I see you are no longer "the oracle's" groupie but now rickb's? Are you ever going to stop playing follow the leader and just start leading on your own?

I can recommend a few books on how to man up if you want....

If for no other reason, threads like these are good reminders that some people have very different life views than those we think make sense.

I liked this take by Bret Easton Ellis (from a few years ago) but I suppose some would find issues with it.

http://www.vanityfair.fr/culture/liv...on-ellis/15837

[Puddlefish]

Or some just have more common sense than others. And manners. Common sense and manners are not entitlements, they are examples of class and education. I loved that article too and sort of thought it could be applied to you and rafe....I see you are no longer "the oracle's" groupie but now rickb's? Are you ever going to stop playing follow the leader and just start leading on your own?

I can recommend a few books on how to man up if you want....

As some famous dead guy said. "When calls for manners are used as a bludgeon to silence dissent, the end result – and often the goal – is precisely the opposite of civility."