Permethrin Questions

[rafe]

So I have a pint of 10% Permethrin. Not Sawyers. It doesn't say what the other 90% is. It appears to be made for spraying in barns and on lawns. I was thinking of diluting about 1:30 or so, either soaking or spraying onto selected items. The question is, which items?

In summer I mostly wear nylon shorts and a loose-fitting synthetic top. My legs and arms are all exposed. Outer layer, if I wear one would be a synthetic flannel shirt if it's cool out. Or Frogg Toggs, or thin sil-nylon rain gear. Does anyone treat base layers? Socks or undies? Does that make any sense at all? How about rain gear or gaiters?

Pack? Tent? Sleeping bag? Stuff sacks (mostly silnylon) ? Probably not the food bag, eh?

When it comes down to it, the range of items that are worth treating might be very small. Looking for some guidance.

[Hikingjim]

I have been doing a lot of reading on this recently. In addition to some shirt/pants, I have sprayed my shoes, socks (moreso around the ankle), a bunch on the outside of my pack, the outside of my hat

if I wore gaiters, I would spray them too. If you're in long grass, then you are more protected

tick movement tends to be upward. so good protection on socks, etc is important. Some wear pants and tuck them into the socks to be extra careful. I heat up pretty quickly and don't really want to do that, but definitely would if I knew it was infested area, or if i was going through long grass, etc

if you go short sleeve in an area you know might have ticks, it's a bit of a risk and you just need to be careful not to brush up again trees etc. If that's hard to avoid and it's a tick area, I might go long sleeve

I think tent spraying is pretty common and makes a lot of sense, and have heard some do sleeping bag.

[burger]

The answer is: it depends on what you want to keep off you. Permethrin is great for ticks, useless for everything else.

I spent two summers doing field work in central Massachusetts in the worst bug conditions imaginable--horrid blackflies in May followed by horrid mosquitoes in June followed by horrid deerflies in July. And horrid ticks all spring and summer long. I wore long pants and a l/s nylon shirt and regularly sprayed the shirt and pants and my shoes and socks with permethrin.

Permethrin did nothing for blackflies (they hardly ever land on your clothes--just your hair and skin, usually on your head). Permethrin did nothing for mosquitoes--I still had to hose down with Off every day. Permethrin did nothing for the deerflies, though those guys are pretty slow-moving and not a problem unless you're standing still. Permethrin was awesome for ticks and kept them away almost completely. So, I would say spray if your clothes if you are going to be in a tick-infested area. Otherwise, don't bother.

I wouldn't bother with underwear (if a tick gets into your pants, it's not going to go exploring) or rain gear (bugs usually aren't a big problem when it's raining hard enough to merit rain gear).

I do not understand the point of poisoning every bug that lands on your tent. If a butterfly lands on your permethrin-soaked tent, it's dead, too. Meanwhile, assuming you have closed up your tent, nothing can get in. Seriously, why the hell do people bother going to the woods during bug season if they are so freaked out by bugs that they have to kill everything that's even buzzing around their tent? Are people really that afraid that they might get a bite or two when they climb out of the tent? Pathetic. I have pulled countless ticks off myself but have never seen one on my tent or backpack (I have seen plenty of butterflies and other harmless bugs landing on my gear).

[PD230SOI]

I will be treating sleeping bags for this summer but not tents or tarps. My son and I both got Lyme a few summers ago and I am fairly certain I was bitten at night. I have a memory of trying to get a bug off that particular area while groggy.

for my kids I do socks, pants, and shirts.

[12trysomething]

Typically the agricultural permethrin is petroleum based and is different than others more commonly used (Sawyers as an example). It sounds like this may be what you have. I would research before spraying. There is a lot of information and advice on the difference between.

[MtDoraDave]

Almost Everything. I've read enough about Lyme disease that I want to do as much as possible to prevent it.

I bought the concentrated stuff at Tractor Supply, so I have a several year supply and don't need to use it sparingly.

Hiking in the Ocala Nat'l Forest before I discovered permethrin, I put my pack down at a lunch break and in seconds saw that it had several ticks on it. So now I spray my backpack.
Base layer, socks, sleeping bag, handkerchief, hat ... anything that a tick could climb on should be a death sentence to that tick, imo.

I met a hiker who wore long a thin long sleeve top and bottom that he said kept ticks off him - they were like a camouflage stretchy material with a tight weave (like nylons) that I've been considering... If it's thin and tight enough, it should allow sweat to evaporate through it so it hopefully wouldn't be too hot.

I never considered spraying the tent because I didn't think silnylon would absorb it and/or don't want to risk compromising it with a chemical.

[show me the monkey]

Unless you are bushwhacking, use Permethrin only on your lower extremities, that is shoes, socks and pants. If you are diluting your own, make sure you dilute it down to 0.5% or lower.
I live and train in one of the worst areas for tick's in the country and while I've been using and Permethrin for years, keep in mind it is a suspected carcinogen. Don't use it on your base layer layers, hat, bandana, sleeping bag or your skin. Most importantly, let it dry before wearing the article of clothing. If the poster above had gotten bit by a tick in their tent, it's because they carried it in from their clothes.
If you need something for mosquitoes, use a Deet based product on your skin. It won't work on clothes and will even melt certain types of synthetics.

[12trysomething]

From Toxipedia.org - Overview

---

Permethrin is a synthetic pyrethroid pesticide used as an acaricide and insect repellent. It is employed not only in agriculture, but also in forestry, household settings, and public health programs. As a neurotoxin, permethrin affects neuron membranes by prolonging the activation of sodium, and is more effective against insects and aquatic life than mammals and birds. Due to this toxicological preference, permethrin especially poses risks to fish. For its effects on humans, permethrin has been classified as a type II or III toxin by the EPA, and studies of mice cells have demonstrated the chemical's potential to be carcinogenic.

[peakbagger]

I challenge the statement that Permethrin is a suspected carcinogen as hyperbole. While looking at the literature when used as intended for treating clothes there is no indication of it being a potential carcinogen. There are numerous sites on the internet making toxic claims as a means of hyping their particular "naturopathic" substitutes but they would not be regarded as unbiased sources.
If you look past the hype to more balanced resources like this one http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/PermGen.html and others, most references are that permethrin is EPA listed as a possible carcinogen when eaten. The warnings also are oriented towards the use of the product as agricultural pesticides at higher concentrations.

As the Dihydrogen monoxide hoax shows, even water is inherently hazardous to health when taken to the extreme.

Like almost any natural or synthesized product, the standard should be, does the substantial benefit when used appropriately outweigh the risk. I believe that responsible use of permethrin at low concentration sprayed on clothes and dried is worth what I perceive as insignificant risk.

[rafe]

It's base layers that I'm most concerned about, and that loose shirt that I'm likely to be wearing. I don't wear long pants hiking, unless it's rain gear.

I also question whether there's any advantage to treating silnylon or even just plain nylon/synthetic items. Will the Permethrin solution even soak into that stuff? And if not, what's the point? Hikers studiously avoid cotton, so that's out.

The stuff is super toxic to fish. Sooner or later it's going to end up in water, either from rain falling on treated items, or when you wash them.

[12trysomething]

Essentially you need to find a method you feel confident in, there is no right or wrong way.

For consideration, here is my approach. Starting in April (I am in the NorthEast) at the beginning of each month (until November) I use the Sawyers in the spray bottle and coat my shoes, gaiters, socks, pants, shirt (both short and long sleeve) and visor. Starting the same month I bi-monthly spray my backpack, hammock (with bug net) and tarp.

[Odd Man Out]

...Like almost any natural or synthesized product, the standard should be, does the substantial benefit when used appropriately outweigh the risk. I believe that responsible use of permethrin at low concentration spayed on clothes and dried is worth what I perceive as insignificant risk.

Excellent point. Humans mostly suck at doing cost-benefit analyses.

[WingedMonkey]

So I have a pint of 10% Permethrin. Not Sawyers. It doesn't say what the other 90% is. It appears to be made for spraying in barns and on lawns. I was thinking of diluting about 1:30 or so, either soaking or spraying onto selected items. The question is, which items?

In summer I mostly wear nylon shorts and a loose-fitting synthetic top. My legs and arms are all exposed. Outer layer, if I wear one would be a synthetic flannel shirt if it's cool out. Or Frogg Toggs, or thin sil-nylon rain gear. Does anyone treat base layers? Socks or undies? Does that make any sense at all? How about rain gear or gaiters?

Pack? Tent? Sleeping bag? Stuff sacks (mostly silnylon) ? Probably not the food bag, eh?

When it comes down to it, the range of items that are worth treating might be very small. Looking for some guidance.

To make a solution equal to .5% with the 10% ag stuff; 1 part concentrate to 19 parts water.

Myself, I only soak long pants (which zip off legs) and shirt and socks.

[MuddyWaters]

I spray shoes, socks, pants/shorts, underwear, shirt, gaiters, hat, fleece beanie, gloves, light weight fleece, and long underwear.

[Traillium]

I spray shoes, socks, pants/shorts, underwear, shirt, gaiters, hat, fleece beanie, gloves, light weight fleece, and long underwear.

Same here, except for not doing underwear. I also partially sprayed my pack & my hammock — until I ran out of material I had ordered from the US.

[swisscross]

Having friends that have been misdiagnosed and went untreated for Lyme for years creating long term affects that I would not wish on my worse enemies....I soak freaking everything.

[Sandy of PA]

The Sawyer stuff says do not use on underwear. I use it on all outer clothes and my pack since it comes into the tent at night.

[rafe]

The Sawyer stuff says do not use on underwear. I use it on all outer clothes and my pack since it comes into the tent at night.

Yeah, I'm a bit wary of using it on any layer that's next to the skin. It's allegedly non toxic to humans but why tempt fate?

[egilbe]

Yeah, I'm a bit wary of using it on any layer that's next to the skin. It's allegedly non toxic to humans but why tempt fate?

Mammals break down and neutralize the toxicity. I wouldn't worry about it.

[Diamondlil]

Just keep it away from cats while spraying and while it's wet. It will cause severe damage to their nervous system. But just cats, go figure?


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