Homeless people living in national forests

[Dogwood]

One can be deluded by societal and cultural norms which I've clearly said many times eye opening sobriety can be reached by living outside the U.S. for periods, walking across S.America, doing a LD hike, perhaps living in the woods, etc. However, every person commenting here, including myself when I was homeless, want to live outside these norms, not be subjected to them, and even complain about them, yet are so willing to benefit from them in some way. That seems like a cop out. If you really want to be homeless living off the land be totally self sustaining be impoverished go to Siberia, Calcutta India, Terra del Fuego, live in the mountains of Haiti, Columbia or Honduras or Bolivia, etc. See how it goes. Then, come back and lecture about how bad the U.S. culture is and security and some level of comfort is bad.

[Wise Old Owl]

I O I O-its oft ta work we go!

Uh I thought you were on disability?

[RockDoc]

I agree with the posts saying that there are two types of homeless. I think they are polar opposites. The one type (Thoreau followers) just love the wilderness and enjoy spending time there. They are generally law-abiding and freedom loving. I did this on and off for a few years in my teens/20's. Didn't want any trouble, just loved sleeping under the open sky. These people are not usually a problem to anyone.

The second type (moochers) squat in or near cities in order to soak up whatever goods and services they can beg, borrow, or steal. Generally they are whacked out, drugged, criminal, and deviant although some are simply harmless and luckless. Seattle and a few other welcoming cities are full of them, in plain sight every day. It didn't used to be like this until "Progressive" cities started making them extremely welcome, throwing tens of millions of tax dollars at them, providing places to camp, and facilitating heroin abuse. The population of this type of homeless is growing.

[rocketsocks]

Uh I thought you were on disability?

shows how much you "Know it Owl"

[MuddyWaters]

Many people who sneer at the drunk or drugged homeless while driving past are themselves hooked on booze and ambien and mood stabilizers. And then there's television addiction and the dreaded couch potato syndrome---an electronic pastime most homeless don't do.

The steady stream of people pouring into the local convenience store at 6pm and leaving with cases of beer, every work day, is an indicator.
Theres a lot of people here that drink daily while hiking as well.
Im not against drinking at all, but a great many do it daily. Everyone else they know does it too, so they blow it off as normal.

It isnt.

[Hosh]

I don't disagree with the idea that we as a society consume too much alcohol. But it certainly is not equivalent to a sub set of the society that is drunk, drugged or otherwise incapacitated 12+ hours per day.

The folks showing up at 6pm likely have worked, hopefully not holding an aged cardboard sign "won't work, ain't hungry, need beer", my favorite!

[Dogwood]

Reputable study upon study upon study conducted on the U.S. population(not some cherry picked country like Sweden's population dissimilar in several import aspects than the U.S. population) demonstrate a significant correlation between homelessness and poverty. Studies demonstrate an increased risk of homeless for the impoverished. Homeless communities aren't generally teeming with NASA engineers, public school teachers, college professors, millionaires, municipal workers, firemen, Police, or anyone else who maintains a job with substantial above poverty level income living in tents, dilapidated RVs or campers, or squatting on National Forest land. Nor are homeless communities generally teeming with employed dishwashers, ditch diggers, waitresses, or fast food establishment employees. Nor are homeless communities generally teeming with those who regularly volunteer or have a broad deep community consciousness.

Lower education, particularly dropping out in or before graduating from High School, has been linked with poverty.

Unemployment, intentional or otherwise, for what ever reasons, have been linked to poverty.

Higher rates of mental disorders have been linked to the poor compared to the above poverty line income of the U.S. population. I've seen studies suggesting 16% of the homeless have clinically diagnosed mental disorders with the rate generally agreed upon by psychiatrists to be higher for the same group having undiagnosed mental disorders.

Drug abuse, particularly certain categories like alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, heroin, crack, and meth "the poor man's cocaine", is linked to poverty. How one maintains a $100+ a day crack or $200+ a day heroin habit without resorting to crime or avoiding a significant risk of poverty is beyond me. It's not just the pricier drugs too. How one maintains a regular meth or even alcohol or high use tobacco habit while being impoverished can and often does lead to criminality. That does not mean to imply or suggest drug abuse is necessarily the sole cause of homelessness or drug abuse doesn't occur in median and high income households and among individuals though. That also isn't implying or suggesting every impoverished homeless person is addicted to illicit drugs. Never the less the statistical correlation is undeniable.

Single parenthood - having children out of wedlock - is likewise linked to poverty. This stat holds true across racial, religious, and different U.S. geographical demographics. Interesting enough the significant rise in single motherhood over the last 50 or so yrs parallels statistically with the rise in the welfare state. There's much gov't incentive to have children out of wedlock.

Study upon reputable study can be cited to support what's said here but some don't want to hear about facts.

Again, I cite the Brookings Institute study that boiled it down to three principles to adhere to substantially reduce the risk of being impoverished in the U.S.:

Complete High School(at the least)

Don't have children until you're married( or have a stable two parent household)

Maintain a job

It might anger some people. Some may want to change the subject or ignore the facts. But, let's be "tough love" harshly honest. All these correlated categories don't just magically fall out of the sky to be visited upon the impoverished homeless en mass as if personal bad decision making, possibly a long series of questionable decision making, was not personally involved.

Some of the same now, sometimes/often wanting to continue with the same questionable patterns of character and decision making, with documented negative consequences to themselves, others, and the environment, desiring to continue in the impoverished homeless life, without a willingness to advance by sweat of their own labor and making better choices to the best of their ability, want to set up in your backyard, the yard you toiled for EARNED by sacrifice and work and through long term commitment and devotion.

What might be the consequences? What might be the negative consequences if allowed uncontrolled in National Forests?

[rocketsocks]

This is one time I gotta agree with Dogwood, only on the first half though because I got tired of reading, maybe later this afternoon I'll agree all the way.

[Tipi Walter]

Dogwood highlights the negative side of homelessness but ignores the other part of the conversation we've been having here---the desire to live outdoors in the woods in primitive structures for the love of the outdoors and done with a conscious desire to embrace poverty and spend little to no effort developing a career---What I call the secret to life: Seeing how little money you can make and still be happy.

During my 21 years of Tipi life I never made more than $5,000 a year working one day a week as a church janitor 10 miles away in a small town. I sometimes bicycled to work, often hitchhiked, later used a cheap motorcycle that got 75 miles to the gallon. I wanted no career which would impede my opportunity to live outdoors. I was legal on 40 acres of mountain land from the land owners, and I had no drivable access to my ridgetop home---just a one mile trail I cut in with a tough elevation gain of a thousand feet.

To American standards I was homeless. To Dogwood's standard I was probably the dregs of society. But to me? I thought of myself as the luckiest man in America, a combination of John Muir, Ed Abbey and Milarepa. And I bought wholly into the mindset of both Native American spirituality and Yoga philosophy: The real church is a couple people sitting under a tree. A Lakota medicine man Matthew King said it best: "God is Nature. Nature is God."

I was even inspired by Jesus and his "homelessness" and his words: "Take no thought for your life." "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin."

Amen, pass the bowsaw and the kindling.

Do you want to know what the real impediments are that will keep a person from this kind of life?
** Reproduction and rearing children. Once the nanny state figures you're raising your family in a structure w/o water and electricity, they'll swoop down hard like when Custer massacred the Cheyenne on the Wasita River---and take your children away.
** The desire for the plugged in life---electricity, central air, smartfones, the wall thermostat. televised football etc.
** The bane of debt whereby you'll never leave the workplace.
** The choking indifference to Nature and wilderness and your place in it.
** The stifling smothering thought of what your parents or what your friends will think.

ETC ETC

[John B]

Do you want to know what the real impediments are that will keep a person from this kind of life?
** Reproduction and rearing children. Once the nanny state figures you're raising your family in a structure w/o water and electricity, they'll swoop down hard like when Custer massacred the Cheyenne on the Wasita River---and take your children away.
** The desire for the plugged in life---electricity, central air, smartfones, the wall thermostat. televised football etc.
** The bane of debt whereby you'll never leave the workplace.
** The choking indifference to Nature and wilderness and your place in it.
** The stifling smothering thought of what your parents or what your friends will think.

ETC ETC

You seem to be on Whiteblaze quite a bit, so what made you give up life w/o electricity, the internet, and passing the days living in a tent?

[left52side]

What I call the secret to life: Seeing how little money you can make and still be happy.

Exactly Tipi ,you hit the nail on the head with this one .
As far as other comments made on this topic,who is to say where others have been homeless etc.
I guess my point is even in Haiti and central america people still have small luxury's,cell phone ,electricity,etc.
Our luxuries here in america obviously tend to be better than most other countries but hardly makes us dregs of society ... I think simple living without worrying about silly monetary things your whole life until one day your dead with the same sized coffin in the same depth hole as johnny the homeless guy down the street that was belittled for being the dreg of the town,when actually johnny choose to live in the woods and the simple life,,,
I dont hold attachment to most common things is what im saying I suppose. I could certainly walk away from my tiny home right now with everything I own in it and I know that I will be fine because I still have life and that daily is a blessing,everything else is replaceable...

You seem to be on Whiteblaze quite a bit, so what made you give up life w/o electricity, the internet, and passing the days living in a tent?

I think Tipi answered this question already in the post lol.

** The desire for the plugged in life---electricity, central air, smartfones, the wall thermostat. televised football etc.

And I think you completely missed the point,just because one chooses to live A simple carefree life doesn't mean that they have to wipe there asses with grape leaves...
Cell phones with WIFI and data are available everywhere now at a low monthly cost,as is internet at libraries in town.
Living simple has nothing to do with how much someone is on whiteblaze forums posting ,it is about the peace of mind of knowing that you can walk away from said situations without having a mental collapse.

[rocketsocks]

Dogwood highlights the negative side of homelessness but ignores the other part of the conversation we've been having here---the desire to live outdoors in the woods in primitive structures for the love of the outdoors and done with a conscious desire to embrace poverty and spend little to no effort developing a career---What I call the secret to life: Seeing how little money you can make and still be happy.

During my 21 years of Tipi life I never made more than $5,000 a year working one day a week as a church janitor 10 miles away in a small town. I sometimes bicycled to work, often hitchhiked, later used a cheap motorcycle that got 75 miles to the gallon. I wanted no career which would impede my opportunity to live outdoors. I was legal on 40 acres of mountain land from the land owners, and I had no drivable access to my ridgetop home---just a one mile trail I cut in with a tough elevation gain of a thousand feet.

To American standards I was homeless. To Dogwood's standard I was probably the dregs of society. But to me? I thought of myself as the luckiest man in America, a combination of John Muir, Ed Abbey and Milarepa. And I bought wholly into the mindset of both Native American spirituality and Yoga philosophy: The real church is a couple people sitting under a tree. A Lakota medicine man Matthew King said it best: "God is Nature. Nature is God."

I was even inspired by Jesus and his "homelessness" and his words: "Take no thought for your life." "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin."

Amen, pass the bowsaw and the kindling.

Do you want to know what the real impediments are that will keep a person from this kind of life?
** Reproduction and rearing children. Once the nanny state figures you're raising your family in a structure w/o water and electricity, they'll swoop down hard like when Custer massacred the Cheyenne on the Wasita River---and take your children away.
** The desire for the plugged in life---electricity, central air, smartfones, the wall thermostat. televised football etc.
** The bane of debt whereby you'll never leave the workplace.
** The choking indifference to Nature and wilderness and your place in it.
** The stifling smothering thought of what your parents or what your friends will think.

ETC ETC

All good points! Most people wouldn't have a clue how to live off the land, and it scares the hell outta them to think "what if" I had no home...it's often easier to stay the indentured in a system that's familiar, tough as it is at times.

[Tipi Walter]

You seem to be on Whiteblaze quite a bit, so what made you give up life w/o electricity, the internet, and passing the days living in a tent?

After spending 30 years in one location I was ready for a change and so I moved to the mountains of TN and built a series of Witus (wigwams) and set up various large tents on a creek in Monroe County TN. I met Little Mitten and we set up a home place in a double wide for many years and this allowed me the opportunity to backpack and camp in various adjacent wilderness areas, something I couldn't do at my permanent Tipi as it wasn't movable. While the Tipi had everything, I missed real wilderness and waterfalls and mountain tops and by leaving and getting an indoor basecamp with Mitten I'm now able to visit these wild places on ranging backpacking trips.

It's funny, but when I first met Mitten I told her "I'm gonna return to the tipi eventually no matter what---with or without you." We worked out a decent compromise for both of us---she doesn't have to leave her family and live in a tipi, and I can devote large chunks of time to the outdoors.

[Tipi Walter]

I think simple living without worrying about silly monetary things your whole life until one day your dead with the same sized coffin in the same depth hole as johnny the homeless guy down the street that was belittled for being the dreg of the town,when actually johnny choose to live in the woods and the simple life,,,

Excellent post and wonderful expression---same sized coffin in the same depth hole---about says it all.

All good points! Most people wouldn't have a clue how to live off the land, and it scares the hell outta them to think "what if" I had no home...it's often easier to stay the indentured in a system that's familiar, tough as it is at times.

It's funny but when I'm driving around or thinking about the woods or hanging out with my friends I often think about Plan B if I lose everything and have to return permanently to the woods. I look at a distant forest hill and think, "I could live up there in a yurt" or "My friends have a 100 acres, they'll let me put up a canvas tipi!". No matter how complicated life becomes, I always expect to have it taken away and I'm back to where it all began: On a foot trail with a pack making my way to a secluded camping spot.

The beauty of this solution is that most Americans never want this option, and so it leaves more for me.

[TNhiker]

what happened to the tipi on the 40 acres?

[Tipi Walter]

what happened to the tipi on the 40 acres?

The 40 acres still belongs to the land owners---I got permission to set up on the most remote part of their land. The old tipi pole frame still stands along with the cast iron woodstove. I've made several trips back up there in the last 15 years and always like to backpack with a tent and set up camp nearby. The wonderful trail to the top is now gone so it's a bushwack.

[SWODaddy]

We think it's bad with 7.3 billion of us, wait until we reach 12 billion etc. America is projected to be around 450 million by 2050, I guess our goal is to have over a billion consumers like China. Kiss what's left of wilderness goodbye.

The world population isn't going anywhere near 12 billion.

[TNhiker]

The 40 acres still belongs to the land owners---I got permission to set up on the most remote part of their land. The old tipi pole frame still stands along with the cast iron woodstove. I've made several trips back up there in the last 15 years and always like to backpack with a tent and set up camp nearby. The wonderful trail to the top is now gone so it's a bushwack.

wonder if theyd be open to having another person who wants to drop outta society live on their land?

[Uriah]

The world population isn't going anywhere near 12 billion.

You might want to watch this. You might even see me sitting in class.

[rocketsocks]

You might want to watch this. You might even see me sitting in class.

cool video. will someone smarter than me please calculate the doubling rate for say...the Appalachian Trail. Thanks in advance.