Homeless people living in national forests

[Dogwood]

And to these Dogwood I would add:
1. Choose the right parents
2. Choose the right place of birth
3. Choose the right time-frame of your life

There is a lot of luck involved in life, much of which lay beyond our control. I know when I travel through areas of the US where poverty reigns I can see how escaping it is nearly impossible. Poverty is relative of course (travel through Africa and it gives new meaning to the term), but no matter its degree or where it is found, one commonality rings true: it is difficult to claw out from. The tools and the opportunity must first be in place.

This is another attempt at ignoring personal responsibility by implying life - quality of life - is more about luck than making better decisions. Making better decisions affects quality of life more than luck!

We can't choose our parents but people can choose under what circumstances they DECIDE to become or risk being a parent.

[Uriah]

This is another attempt at ignoring personal responsibility by implying life - quality of life - is more about luck than making better decisions. Making better decisions affects quality of life more than luck! We can't choose our parents but people can choose under what circumstances they DECIDE to become or risk being a parent.

If given the tools and the opportunities. Not everyone has the capacity for intellect or intelligent choice, let alone common sense or the capacity to reason. Not everyone is given the chance to go to college, financially or intellectually. They do with what they've been bestowed. Sure, we can say they make bad choices, but the capacity to make good choices is limited. Especially when in youth or when drugs have taken hold. Bad choices? Yes. But good choices and personal responsibility is limited for many of these types. It's easy for an intelligent man like you to see it your way, but you have to see it from their vantage to truly understand the matter.

[theinfamousj]

I get it, there are homeless in the national parks... there will always be homeless somewhere, we can sit around and talk about it and discuss solutions, but it is a 2000+ year problem that has little answers.

There are answers in the U.S. People ignore these at their own and societies' peril.

Three rules for staying out of poverty

1) Don't have kids out of wedlock. Wait to get married until after 21. Data clearly demonstrates single parent children are at a higher risk of being impoverished as well as having a higher risk of criminal behavior.

2) Finish at least High School. Data clearly correlates higher education with higher income.

3) Maintain a job.

My perspective as a young woman:

What happens if you are raped-without-protection and the Pro-Lifers force you to have the baby? You have just lost #1 simply for being the victim of a crime. Hardly seems fair to be punished for someone else's misdeeds.

And because you are now a Mom at the tender age of 15 and need to recover from the major medical undertaking of building and expelling a new life, you miss school. Then the child gets sick (because everyone with kids knows that is pretty much how the first two years of life go: sick with brief periods of health) and you miss more school. So much school that you are behind even when you do show up. So now you fail at point number 2 only because someone else assaulted your body with his body. Again, hardly seems fair.

And hell, you cannot keep a job, either, because if you don't have the time to attend school thanks to your child, you also don't have the time to attend work. So you fail at point number three all because someone else refused to acknowledge your refusal to have sex. Hardly seems fair.

That society is structured so that a woman of childbearing years who has found herself victim of a crime had to fail all the rules suggests to me that maybe we need to restructure society. I think that if you are forcibly raped and get pregnant as a result and decide to keep and love the child, society ought to help you succeed rather than ticking off the "rules" you have broken.

Which is all to say, that this discussion is very male-perspectived. 50% of humanity isn't male, though.

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[MuddyWaters]

And to these Dogwood I would add:
1. Choose the right parents
2. Choose the right place of birth
3. Choose the right time-frame of your life

There is a lot of luck involved in life, much of which lay beyond our control. I know when I travel through areas of the US where poverty reigns I can see how escaping it is nearly impossible. Poverty is relative of course (travel through Africa and it gives new meaning to the term), but no matter its degree or where it is found, one commonality rings true: it is difficult to claw out from. The tools and the opportunity must first be in place.

Having the right values, and education, and at least average intelligence is #1.
Everything else can be overcome.

I have a friend that as a 18 yr old kid, escaped from Vietnam to Thailand under a pile of dead fish on a fishing boat when Vietnam fell. Made his way to US, did not speak english or know a single person. Got help from Catholic church, worked at convenience stores while putting himself thru college , was held up at gunpoint twice, got out got a good job as a engineer. Eventually brought his whole family over here from Vietnam. Is married, has good job, wife does too. Earns in top 3% of wage earners in US.

anyone that complains they cant succeed because of X, Y, Z is kidding themselves.
People do everyday in spite of extreme difficulties.
You have to want to , and be willing to do what it takes.

[Dogwood]

If given the tools and the opportunities. Not everyone has the capacity for intellect or intelligent choice, let alone common sense or the capacity to reason. Not everyone is given the chance to go to college, financially or intellectually. They do with what they've been bestowed. Sure, we can say they make bad choices, but the capacity to make good choices is limited. Especially when in youth or when drugs have taken hold. Bad choices? Yes. But good choices and personal responsibility is limited for many of these types. It's easy for an intelligent man like you to see it your way, but you have to see it from their vantage to truly understand the matter.

Possibly no where else in the world is the population offered the tools, choices, and opportunities to financially and socially succeed than in the United States. People strapping their arses to boards floating across ocean and risking open seas in row boats, hiking hundreds of miles across open desert and wading rivers and hopping northbound border crossing freight trains risking rape, robbery, incarceration, and death, those locking themselves into semi sized storage containers for weeks at time, and those hiding inside all manner of border crossing vehicles certainly think so!

Impoverished minorities living in crime ridden inner cities at a YOUNG age with significant disadvantages make the intelligent HARD choice to not resort to the easy crime dollar but pull themselves up through sports, music, education, and hard work etc rather than resorting to crime. How many impoverished hard working Latinos, Asians, and Indians come to this country even without knowing English, having a roof over their head, a Drivers's License, car, etc bust their arses and live within or below their means and pull themselves up because they take advantage of the opportunities to EARNING financial success in the U.S.? What sets these people apart is the ability to see the opportunities, to not be limited by a victimhood mindset, and WORK!

As Muddy Waters said "anyone that complains they cant succeed because of X, Y, Z is kidding themselves.
People do everyday in spite of extreme difficulties.
You have to want to , and be willing to do what it takes."

[Hosh]

Much of the social and political under currents in today's society flow from a perspective of the "oppressed" and the "oppressor". People learn at an early age that it's ok to consider yourself a victim, beaten down by circumstances or the Man.

With all the protest on the election results and I want to rent a helicopter and drop pacifiers on their heads.

Can you imagine this generation being needed to fight Nazi tyranny. They all would sit around bitchin about how their uniforms fit and how awful the coffee tasted.

[rocketsocks]

Much of the social and political under currents in today's society flow from a perspective of the "oppressed" and the "oppressor". People learn at an early age that it's ok to consider yourself a victim, beaten down by circumstances or the Man.

With all the protest on the election results and I want to rent a helicopter and drop pacifiers on their heads.

Can you imagine this generation being needed to fight Nazi tyranny. They all would sit around bitchin about how their uniforms fit and how awful the coffee tasted.

...a perfect example of the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality.

[Wise Old Owl]

Dogwood - seriously someone who rejects society lives in the woods and catching dinner with a rod and a reel to feed his family impacts your life-really? Or that person who lives down on the rail road tracks in east Philadelphia?

Dogwood get a grip, you may be listening to talk radio stations - but you totally missed the point.

Homeless_Man.jpg

Look again I am not arguing with you period,,, PM me if you want to further this "interesting" conversation.

[Wise Old Owl]

If given the tools and the opportunities. Not everyone has the capacity for intellect or intelligent choice, let alone common sense or the capacity to reason. Not everyone is given the chance to go to college, financially or intellectually. They do with what they've been bestowed. Sure, we can say they make bad choices, but the capacity to make good choices is limited. Especially when in youth or when drugs have taken hold. Bad choices? Yes. But good choices and personal responsibility is limited for many of these types. It's easy for an intelligent man like you to see it your way, but you have to see it from their vantage to truly understand the matter.

In some states, this is the failure of the biggest inner city union here in the USA. As an Australian that got his American Citizenship recently. There are good teachers and a few bad ones... I grew up in a public education setting, upon arrival. We cannot continue to just blame teachers, we should also hold parents accountable. The failure in the inner cities is more about dad or mom did not come home, due to drugs, alcohol or lack of parenting - it's a civilization thing that goes back thru the ages. Being homeless is something much more than coping or a bad decision. To say we are not going to help others is a really bad decision... According to Dian Fossey Gorilla's and Primates share food with with others, are we not better than them? Jane Goodall went on to prove they use simple tools to gather food. Is there a problem with sharing a tool to help someone? OK they are in a bad spot on a great piece of land... guess what it's a mess that can be cleaned up. As human beings we help each other in need, and has been many times folks... it's an unfortunate issue that will not go away.


Lets take the high road and unless you have a solution to the issue ...move on.

[Dogwood]

"...someone who rejects society lives in the woods and catching dinner with a rod and a reel to feed his family impacts your life-really?"

This is an illusion. This definitely does not describe the state of the vast majority of the U.S. homeless community.

As said earlier my comments are based on evidence in data, not opinion or sentiment, and personal observations with close ties to and associating with the homeless community in more than 30 U.S. states and being previously homeless for short periods.

"Or that person who lives down on the rail road tracks in east Philadelphia?"

The person who lives on the railroad tracks certainly does NOT live his or her life totally on the railroad tracks. As clearly documented through multiple agencies and studies there are higher correlations with drug use/dependency, criminality, lack of environmental stewardship, lack of personal accountability and sustainability, and obvious poor decision making within the homeless community. At some point it is clear long term impoverished homelessness burden's society in profound significant ways.

Ever come across hobo or homeless camps along rail lines? I have. MANY MANY. They are some of the most environmentally abused places with a high degree of that abuse occurring from homeless correlated behavior with obvious indications of legal and illicit drug use. To get back to the topic, are these the people in general that who you want to let loose unsupervised in National Forest, National/State/County/Town Parks, cemeteries, playgrounds, and Wilderness Areas?

[Wise Old Owl]

Did you not read the part of pfffft: "LET IT GO?"

[chucksorangedream]

Dogwood, I have enjoyed reading your comments and I agree with you.


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[MRupert420]

I immediately thought the same thing but I wasn't going to be the one to say it. I would go further to say not only could having children be considered selfish, but with overpopulation choking out the natural world more and more, reproducing could be considered even criminal.

I take comfort in your words, kind sir. This is how I've been trying to teach my mind to think. Had a friend (in our 20's) say he believes man is here to drain earth of it's resources and then goto another planet. I was stunned to actually hear someone say that even though that is how society lives their lives.

[egilbe]

I take comfort in your words, kind sir. This is how I've been trying to teach my mind to think. Had a friend (in our 20's) say he believes man is here to drain earth of it's resources and then goto another planet. I was stunned to actually hear someone say that even though that is how society lives their lives.

There have been more than a few science fiction stories based on that premise. Once the earth warms enough, we will have mega reptiles again. T-Rex and 120ft anacondas like in the past.