Tent - How big is too big

[Tipi Walter]

Bit of consistency in your opinions would be helpful, unless of course you think Hilleberg's are not "good double wall tents"

The reason I went with the Hilleberg Keron was just to avoid their problem of angled foot ends. No part of your sleeping bag should touch the tent fabric, whether single or double wall. Most Hilleberg tents have steep angled foot ends---Nallo, Nammatj, Akto, Allak, Soulo, Staika etc---and when conditions are right the inner yellow canopy will have some amt of condensation---ergo wet foot box of sleeping bag.

Double wall inner tent canopies get wet with condensation too, but nothing like single walls. I'd much rather have my sleeping bag touching my inner tent than my outer tent fly.

[soumodeler]

I had minimal condensation issues with the duplex, but I almost always kept all 4 side flaps rolled up. On rainy nights, I tried to leave at least one flap rolled up. On a windy, rainy night with all 4 flaps down, there would not be condensation. The problem was still nights with rain which were rare.

I have yet to experience rain in my duplex (although if I go hiking this weekend as planned Matthew may make up for that!) and I generally leave all 4 flaps open. No condensation issues so far at all.

[Lnj]

My TT Double Moment has never dripped a drop on me. Mostly it's just me in it, but in cold weather and in hot humid weather, I have never gotten wet due to condensation. My husband slept in it with me on Grandfather Mtn. at Halloween a year or two back and still, no condensation. Maybe I have just been lucky so far.

[cbr6fs]

The reason I went with the Hilleberg Keron was just to avoid their problem of angled foot ends. No part of your sleeping bag should touch the tent fabric, whether single or double wall. Most Hilleberg tents have steep angled foot ends---Nallo, Nammatj, Akto, Allak, Soulo, Staika etc---and when conditions are right the inner yellow canopy will have some amt of condensation---ergo wet foot box of sleeping bag.

Double wall inner tent canopies get wet with condensation too, but nothing like single walls. I'd much rather have my sleeping bag touching my inner tent than my outer tent fly.

It's a struggle to form any consistent opinion from your posts.
I'm pretty sure you've got stuff to say that's well worth listening/reading, but you seem to be so stuck on one brand of tents that it blinds you to their problems and what might be better solutions.

Now after all these years of your Hilleberg evangelicalism when you've been confronted by hard facts you just seem to disappear for a while rather than face the fact that sticking tents under labels "single skin bad" "double skin good""double skin Hillberg betters.

There are so many designs and materials used for tents, putting them all under one label is not only incorrect it's also pretty stupid.

You're the first to admit that:

I believe some Hillebergs have a bigger tendency to produce condensation because of their fly configuration whereby the fly hugs the ground all around the perimeter.

You then seem to make a MASSIVE jump in thinking that ALL tents must have condensation problems simply because yours do.
It's ridiculous.

Something like a Duplex is one step up from a tarp ventilation wise.
This makes it a cold drafty place be in when the weather is bad, but in milder weather it's a fantastic tent with hardly any condensation.

Something like my Stratosphere 2 on the other hand is warmer and less drafty, yet has massive amounts of condensation.

Then there is the point you made yourself

I'd much rather have my sleeping bag touching my inner tent than my outer tent fly.

You seem to completely disregard the fact that on most single skin shelters there is a LOT more interior space than equivalent sized double skin shelters (my Duplex is a LOT longer than my SS2).

Using your logic this means there is less chance of a outer/sleeping bag contact, which you yourself have said many many many times is a good thing, but your label blindness means you completely disregard this.

How many nights have you spent in modern single skin shelters the last 2 years?

I'm not saying they're perfect for every condition and scenario, it's just that you rip into anyone that dares to recommend any tent that's not a Hilleberg, yet miss fundamental things like ventilation, interior space and even fabric type in your eagerness to put every tent into 1 of 3 groups (single skin, double skin or Heidelberg).

Statements like

Double wall inner tent canopies get wet with condensation too, but nothing like single walls.

are generalisations to the point of being useless.

Don't judge all tents based upon the problems you experience with your Hillebergs, they're vastly different variations on a theme.

[Tipi Walter]

Previous post---
Now after all these years of your Hilleberg evangelicalism when you've been confronted by hard facts you just seem to disappear for a while rather than face the fact that sticking tents under labels "single skin bad" "double skin good""double skin Hillberg betters.

I'm one of the few Hilleberg tent users who has alot of negative things to say about the tents, in fact you cited one of my negatories about a full length fly hugging the ground. There are several other problems with the brand.

Under the right conditions, and you know when you're in these conditions, all tents and even tarps produce condensation, often alot of condensation. Not just Hillebergs but Tarptents and tarps and all others. Let's establish that ALL tents are subject to condensation. But don't take my word for it, here's some outside quotes---

Earlylite says he has a tent with Epic walls and it gets as much condensation as other tents. Grannyhiker had "horrendous" condensation with her Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight. Hikin' Jim uses a SMD Gatewood Cape but in cold weather gets condensation "like nobody's business." Derek Hansen mentions tarp condensation in his hammock at times. Stanley McKinney says there's "no way to stop condensation in certain conditions. Mark says "There were droplets of water all over the inner" of his Tarptent Cloudburst. The discussion continues. See---

http://sectionhiker.com/how-to-preve...-condensation/


In Outside magazine Doug Gantenbein says "Every time I wake up in my Marmot Swallow tent the condensation is so bad . . . my . . . bag and clothes get wet . . ." See---
https://www.outsideonline.com/177187...inside-my-tent


Richard Malpass had alot of condensation in his TT Rainshadow. Even Roger Caffin says "There are some nights when you will get condensation on anything. See---
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/30940/

Even my backpacking friend German Tourist says this about a TT Rainbow--- " . . . I had heavy condensation on the inside of the fly but the inner tent kept me dry---which is the whole purpose of a double wall tent." See---

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/76286/


Jeff Issenberg complains about condensation in his TT Contrail. See---

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/38994/


Here's a long discussion on Tarp condensation---
http://outdoors.stackexchange.com/qu...d-condensation


Jack Haskel says of his TT Moment in a review: "But when it's raining and there's condensation on the inside of the tent, I get wet. That sucks." See---
https://jackhaskel.com/2011/02/01/he...moment-review/


Tired of Tarptents? Let's go to Hillebergs. " . . . condensation is inevitable", so says Charles Lindsey in his Akto review---

http://www.backpacking.net/hilleberg-akto-review.html

Here's a discussion on Whiteblaze and Garlic08 says "condensation is a fact of life . . ." See---

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...sation-problem


This last one has a blurb about Hilleberg condensation---

http://www.bicycle-junkies.com/gear-...mmatj-3gt-tent

[MuddyWaters]

Steep side design where condensation runs down
Dont touch walls
Problems mostly avoided except for rain that causes misting inside

Some single wall tarp tents are poor at managing condendation due to flat lightly sloped panels, usually end entry design.

I find my cuben gets more of a film, smaller droplets break and run off sooner than textured fabrics which hold bigger drops due to surface tension that tend to rain down inside more.
So cuben seems a little better in this regard in my exerience.

Just because all shelters make condensation , doesnt mean it has to get on you, but sonetimes unnavoidable.

Its even possible for breath create "snow" in cold weather that falls onto gear and inside of tent, then melts later when tent warms some or weather changes during night. Ive awoke with the top of my bag around head all wet from this. Same for cold gear inside tent between you and cold outside, it condenses your warm breath too and gets soaked during night. Keep gear by feet keeps it drier.

[Traveler]

Tent types and sizes can be very subjective. However, when people start asking about tickets, you can take that as a sign your tent is too big.

[cbr6fs]

Tipi,

I'm not arguing that all tents suffer condensation at some point in the right conditions, of course they do.

You zone in on whatever thing you see is potentially worse than the tents you choose then completely ignore any experiences, facts or knowledge that counters that.

That's really the gist of my problem, your "opinion" is vague to the point of being useless, reading through a lot of yourt previous posts it seems you have a history of putting tents into dramatically oversimplified categorises to suit a preformed opinion.

How can you say

Double wall inner tent canopies get wet with condensation too, but nothing like single walls.

when you must know that there are so many varying designs of single wall tents made from different materials that such a vast sweeping generalisation is pointless.

IF it's a condensationfest you are far less likely to have a sleeping bag/tent wall contact problem in a tent with more interior space, than if you're in a smaller tent.
Now think on this.
Per footprint size, single wall shelters offer anything from a little more room (say a mid with a full inner compared to the same mid without the inner) to a LOT more room (think something like a TT SS2 with or without it's inner).

So because you have more space there is less chance of your sleeping bag making contact with the condensation dripping walls.

Then there is the fact that some tents are extremely well ventilated, so the bracket for severe condensation problems is far smaller than tents with poor ventilation.

My Duplex for example has far far less condensation than my SS2, even though the Duplex is a single wall and the SS2 a double wall.
Granted i really don't want to spend many a windy night in the Duplex as it can get VERY drafty inside the tent, but it does show how well some tents (yes even single wall) are ventilated.

Then there is the fact that if i see my Duplex is starting to get a lot of condensation on the fly i can just sit up and wipe it down with a cloth.
In a double wall tent you have to be a bit of a contortionist and that's if it's a mesh inner, with a solid inner you're unlikely to see the condensation before it becomes a problem.

This is opinion gained from my own experiences rather than second/third/forth hand experiences from internet links.

It's up to you what tent you use, i can see why some folks would choose to stay with a well known brand, if it works for them then that's fantastic.

But belittling other peoples choices by using silly sweeping generalisations without any first hand experiences or knowledge of other tent designs doesn't do you any favours.

You don't need any justification to use the tents you want, so there is absolutely no need for snipping and nit picking on other peoples choices.

If you came to Greece and we spent a warm but showery night up one of it's mountains i'd guarantee your opinion would soften on single skin tents when you saw how well ventilated it was compared to your Hilleberg.
It'd be like spending the night in a steam room compared to spending the night with a warm hair drier wafting you too sleep.
Great views as well with all the doors wide open.

[rafe]

The only downside was condensation? Well, condensation is a big part of tent camping. You say "Not the fault of the tent but everything was soaked this morning."

It IS the fault of the tent. A good double wall tent would prevent 90% of this condensation ever reaching you. I wonder why backpackers decide weight is more important than staying dry. The whole purpose of a tent is to keep us dry and not soaked.

Everything is a tradeoff. For thru hikers, weight is a huge consideration. So, maybe it's worthwhile trading a few drippy nights for a lighter tent.

I know this from having switched from a double-walled tent to a Tarptent Rainbow. If I thought I'd have to endure several consecutive nights of heavy downpours, I'd rather be in my old-school double walled tent. But (lucky for me) the worst-case scenario is pretty rare, and for the vast majority of nights, the Tarptent has been just fine. Condensation is a nuisance but not a deal-breaker, as far as I'm concerned.

[FamilyGuy]

My only point is that in extreme condensation double wall tents keep occupants drier than single wall tents, and obviously with less need to resort to 3am sponging wipe-offs.

Nope. My Hilleberg Akto was the most condensation prone tent I have ever used. Double walls only meant that more water was soaked up.

Ventillation is key and yes, you can even maximize ventillation in the rain.

[Mockernut]

I would wager that there is no person on this forum that has spent as many nights in a fabric shelter (tent, teepee, tarp, etc.) as Tipi Walter. I listen to the life saving opinion of anyone that can spend multi-weeks in the dead of winter on top of balds in the southern blue ridge and my guess is that Tipi is speaking from past experiences more so from what he has read in others posts. He is also an expert on birthing turtleheads but that is a whole different condensation topic....

[FamilyGuy]

I would wager that there is no person on this forum that has spent as many nights in a fabric shelter (tent, teepee, tarp, etc.) as Tipi Walter. I listen to the life saving opinion of anyone that can spend multi-weeks in the dead of winter on top of balds in the southern blue ridge and my guess is that Tipi is speaking from past experiences more so from what he has read in others posts. He is also an expert on birthing turtleheads but that is a whole different condensation topic....

You would be best served by gathering a wide range of experiences from a wide range of people who backpack in a wide range of conditions in a wide range of geographic areas.

[Venchka]

How wide is wide?
Wayne


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[FamilyGuy]

How wide is wide?
Wayne


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More than 1.

[ryply76]

I'd say save your money and go with the Duplex, plenty of room.