inconsiderate vs ignorant

[perdidochas]

I know this topic has been beaten to death on here, but I recently experienced a situation while on a 10 day section hike that I wanted to share because of the way in which in ended...

My partner and I pulled 21 miles on the first day of our trip because it was raining all day (this was a few weeks ago when Hurricane Matthew came up the coast), so there wasn't much to do other than walk. We had just entered the southern part of SNP, so camping spots were limited and we decided to push on after dark into Calf Mountain Shelter, arriving a little after 9:00pm. I had no intention of staying in the shelter, as I've only slept in a few in over 1000 miles on the AT, but my buddy was dragging and was very much looking forward to getting there, throwing down his pad, and going to sleep. It's pretty much all he talked about for the last few miles in a cold, dark rain. We expected others to be there, and understand that space is first come/first served, but we still figured it wouldn't be full.

But as we walked up, wet and tired, we saw that it was indeed full. Full of tents. Three of them to be exact, one of which was a huge 2-3 person tent. Between the tents and their gear, there was literally no space left. My buddy sat at the picnic table right next to the shelter, exhausted and over it, and let his thoughts be heard, but none of them stirred or stuck their heads out to offer to make room. I went about hanging my hammock and then found a spot for him to set up his tent, which he did, and everything was fine...but it was really frustrating, particularly to my partner. There is no way they didn't hear us come in or hear us talking about it, but they all held their breaths and didn't move a muscle until we left the table. The next morning, they packed up early and we never even got a look at them before they broke camp.

Fast forward a couple of days, and we're taking a late afternoon break at one of the huts before moving on for a few more miles, and a guy who was already set up behind the shelter walks up as we're putting our packs back on to inform us that he was one of the people tenting in the shelter that first night. He said he heard us when we got there, was surprised that anyone else showed up that late, and told us that he "didn't understand hiking etiquette" when he set up his tent in the shelter. He said that he felt badly as he listened to us set up in the rain, that he would never make that mistake again, and he apologized multiple times.

I would have thought that not setting up a huge tent in the shelter falls more under the lines of common sense than "hiking etiquette," however the fact that this dude acknowledged it and owned it when we never would have known it was him was a stand-up thing to do, and tells me that he genuinely did not know he was being inconsiderate. It has also given me pause to consider that sometimes when somebody throws their trash in the fire pit or washes their dishes in a spring or does something else ridiculous like that, maybe they're just ignorant and not actually an a-hole? Food for thought.

IMHO, ignorance to a degree is inconsiderate. You need to learn the rules and informal guidelines when you do something new.

[perdidochas]

Having said that, I've run across Boy Scout groups completely monopolizing shelters with large groups where there have been signs posted along the AT to limit group sizes to 10 or fewer. To me, that is inexcusable and not a matter of "sorry, we didn't know." I even had a ridge runner tell me that BS groups lie about such things all the time. They, as an organized group holding themselves out as superior, have a responsibility to know such things. Sorry, Boy Scout fans, but that's the way I see that.

I'm a former Boy Scout leader (only former because my boys are too old for it), and I agree with you 100%. Boy Scouts shouldn't be sleeping in shelters when backpacking in groups of more than 3 or 4. Just isn't courteous (one of our rules). I apologize for the actions of my fellow Scouters.

[perdidochas]

A group using a shelter is not informed or conserate, as they are explicitly not for them.

Also if non youth sharing sleeping quarters particularly non scout in uncontrolled environment, they are in violation of bsa youth protection policies.

Typical scout leaders

Speaking as a former scout leader, I agree with you. Scouts shouldn't be in shelters and sharing spaces with folks they don't know. Scouts should be in their tents, tarps or hammocks.

[perdidochas]

Never miss a chance to say something negative about Scouts, do you. How do you know that the boys in the shelter with adult leaders weren't fathers with thier sons thus no violation of BSA policy? At least they didn't have their tents set up in the shelter.

I say good for the leaders for taking their time, and probably also at their expense, to take a group of boys who otherwise would probably never get a chance to see the AT.

The boys should be in tents, not sharing spaces with adults. The only way your scenario about fathers/sons would work is if one father and his sons were in the shelter. Once the second father is part of it, it becomes against the rules.

[Ethesis]

The thing is, you might be alone in the shelter when you set up the tent inside it, but you don't know how many others might show up later. If you wait until midnight and your still alone, then maybe set up the tent.

I tend to be places during the off seasons, but it seems that if I'm alone in an eight person shelter it should be ok to set up a tent come night fall. If people show up later and there isn't enough room, I can take it down.

The only reason I would put one up is rain/cold/blowing wind.

Otherwise it is just a waste waste of time and effort.

Now if you mean wait until hikers midnight then we are on all fours in agreement.

[rickb]

The thing is, you might be alone in the shelter when you set up the tent inside it, but you don't know how many others might show up later. If you wait until midnight and your still alone, then maybe set up the tent.

I cannot speak to the norm during the contemporary NOBO bubble, but keeping in mind that shelters also exist off the AT and people use the ones on the AT 12months a year, I would be far more put off by a Hiker arriving at my shelter so long after dark than I would be to find a tent in one early in the evening.

No matter what the Whiteblaze wisdom is regarding coming into a shelter close to midnight turns out to be, there is no way in hell I can imagine subjecting late arrival myself.

I could be out of touch, however.

[perdidochas]

"People who arent registered and background checked by bsa arent allowed to be around scouts on scout activities. Even parents get background checked to accompany their kids on scout functions."

Please site the document that states that scouts are not allowed to be around other people on scout activities or that parents need background checks.

I've been a Scoutmaster for 10 years and this is total BS. Recently my troop visited the local indoor climbing center. The staff there took them for several hours, they were not BSA registered. Or maybe the time when the local park ranger took our guys on a nature hike, he was not BSA registered. Or maybe the time when they visited the local fire station, or a thousand other places. Why in the world would we want to segregate scouts from the rest of the world?

And one more point. You take a group of scouts to public place, from McDonald to the Smithsonian and they need to use the bathroom, guess what, there are men in there with the boys. That's the real world.

Parents aren't required by national BSA to have background checks to go on outings with the boys. They may be required by local troop leadership to do so (and IMHO, it's a good idea).

The rule applicable to shelters is that Scouts are not to sleep in a shelter (be it tent, cabin room, or hotel room) with an adult that is not their parent.

[perdidochas]

You never know if someone is filling up their bottle further downstream. The trail (or a different trail) may cross that spring or stream in another place that you can't see or know about. That is why many people carry a collapsible bucket they can scoop water and carry to a different location. There is nothing more disgusting than going to a spring to get some drinking water or water to cook with and you see bits of macaroni in it from someone who decided to clean their pot there.

There are a lot of things that people do in springs and leave evidence of, that are more disgusting than the above.

[Longboysfan]

Sad to say, but there needs to be a sign which says "No tents in the huts". $10,000 fine and 10 years in jail for 1st violation.

I'll go with that.

[Longboysfan]

If the tents hadn't been set up in the shelter you two would have gone in there and woken everybody up unloading your gear and getting your stuff in order. Totally inconsiderate. If you show up at a shelter and everybody is in bed, you need to find another place to camp.

I could live with late hikers into the shelter.

[Longboysfan]

One of the first things I did when I started hiking was deliberately burn a used Mountain House bag at a shelter fire pit to inspect whether it would burn in its entirety. The next morning the fire was out and the ashes cold. I stirred the ashes and looked for any trace of the bag remains and could find none. I even removed the ashes and sifted through them. Nothing.

I probably have only burned bags a half dozen times in a little less than two months and over 500 miles of hiking the AT. The rest of the time I carried them out. In those half dozen time I always looked to see if there were remains, but never as thoroughly as the first time. I have never found remains.

Carry it out.

When you burn anything of that type - plastic like. It sends off a smell in the smoke.
Bears will equate that smell to food.

Just saying.

[theinfamousj]

I have never understood the point of a tent in a shelter as opposed to on the ground near the shelter. In the worst of winter weather, the tent on the ground is warmer because the ground is solid whereas the shelter floor has air whirling under it. (the sides of the tent being equal)

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[BillyGr]

The rule applicable to shelters is that Scouts are not to sleep in a shelter (be it tent, cabin room, or hotel room) with an adult that is not their parent.

At least in the Guide to Safe Scouting, it specifically says tent, not shelter in general, which makes sense. If an adult and unrelated youth were inside of a tent it would be much easier for something to happen since it is more difficult for others to see what is occurring.

In fact, our Troop rented a cabin at a Scout Camp back in April. This cabin was all one big room (semi-divided with a half wall but nothing to completely separate it) and they (the Council) had no issue with the Troop renting it, knowing that there would be both adults and youth staying there (we were only renting the one cabin).

Most of the cabins I've seen in at least a couple other Scout camps are similar setups (one had an enclosed porch that could be a separate room, but in March it worked better as a refrigerator for our food since the heat didn't get out there at all).

Note - this has nothing to do with the use of lean-tos by groups in general - we've only used them in a couple scenarios:
In areas where there was no choice (that is, camping wasn't allowed outside the lean-to) and along the AT where the
lean-tos were the large style (that fit around 20) where we left plenty of space for anyone else who was interested in using them, and/or in off seasons when hiker traffic was far lower (if any at all besides us).

[gpburdelljr]

I have never been worried about a tent in a shelter when I'm alone or with one or two others.

At the same time when the weather is bad and space is tight It hasn't occurred to me to use a tent in a shelter.
Ok. I still haven't pitched a tent in a shelter but I'm still thinking about it.

Sleep in the shelter, or sleep in a tent, but don't do both at he same time.

[ScareBear]

We here in the Alps have the habit of the downhill-people giving way to the uphill-goer. Or, in a wider aspect, the ones with the easier task giving way to the one having the more tedious and difficult task.
Similar to the habit of the one approaching a resting group should greet first.
This we dont understand as rules, but as our kind of politeness (if we have any at all).

Well, there is a HUGE difference between hiking in the Tirol and hiking in the Bernese Oberland, politeness/kindness wise, IMHO...that goes for skiing too....just sayin....

And yes, everywhere I have hiked in the Alps, the hiker coming down yields to the hiker coming up. You don't want to kick off a big rock or rock slide onto some poor bugger trying his best to claw his way up...plus, it's good fun to catch your breath whilst watching somebody suffer your prior pain...

[perdidochas]

At least in the Guide to Safe Scouting, it specifically says tent, not shelter in general, which makes sense. If an adult and unrelated youth were inside of a tent it would be much easier for something to happen since it is more difficult for others to see what is occurring.

In fact, our Troop rented a cabin at a Scout Camp back in April. This cabin was all one big room (semi-divided with a half wall but nothing to completely separate it) and they (the Council) had no issue with the Troop renting it, knowing that there would be both adults and youth staying there (we were only renting the one cabin).

Most of the cabins I've seen in at least a couple other Scout camps are similar setups (one had an enclosed porch that could be a separate room, but in March it worked better as a refrigerator for our food since the heat didn't get out there at all).

Note - this has nothing to do with the use of lean-tos by groups in general - we've only used them in a couple scenarios:
In areas where there was no choice (that is, camping wasn't allowed outside the lean-to) and along the AT where the
lean-tos were the large style (that fit around 20) where we left plenty of space for anyone else who was interested in using them, and/or in off seasons when hiker traffic was far lower (if any at all besides us).

Well, despite what the technicalities say, I'm not going to sleep in a shelter (even at a scout camp) with boy scouts that aren't my sons (unless it's a life or death situation), and I'm not going to let scouts under my supervision sleep in a shelter with adults that aren't their parents. I'd choose a different section to hike rather than be forced to stay in a shelter. You can choose to do differently, of course.

[dudeijuststarted]

I have set up my bugnet in shelters. The footprint is only 2-3 inches wider than the mattress. I had a guy and his girlfriend complaining about this on one occasion, while laying out a huge gray tarp covering half of the shelter and covering it in their gear and later on, cooking. If I ever do another AT thru, I'm going to do it the same way I did it the first time. Alone and on an alternative itinerary. I go out there to get the hell away from people.

[dukakis]

I'm a solo hiker and have found myself in shelters with people who like taking up more than their fair share of space. When hikers roll in late at night looking for a place to crash, nothing pleases me more to loudly invite them in and tell the hogs to move over.

[Greenlight]

It was absolutely ok to wake them up. And yes, the tools in the shelter-tents should have offered to make room for them.

So you show up at the shelter after dark and sit at the picnic table in front of the shelter while your buddy loudly complains that the shelter is full? Really. It sounds to me like you were the ones lacking etiquette and consideration for others. Did you really think that showing up late and in the rain after dark (9pm is bedtime for many hikers) that it was OK to wake them all up and they would just graciously offer to make room for you?

If its raining and I were using a shelter and it got to be 830 to 845 I'd be thinking "cool, nobody else is coming, I'm going to spread out and use the space available."

You had no right to any space in that shelter, and you ended up doing what you should have: use the shelter you carried with you. Your friend was the jerk for complaining about it and waking everybody else up.

[Scars]

We had just entered the southern part of SNP, so camping spots were limited and we decided to push on after dark into Calf Mountain Shelter, arriving a little after 9:00pm.
But as we walked up, wet and tired, we saw that it was indeed full. Full of tents. Three of them to be exact, one of which was a huge 2-3 person tent. Between the tents and their gear, there was literally no space left. My buddy sat at the picnic table right next to the shelter, exhausted and over it, and let his thoughts be heard, but none of them stirred or stuck their heads out to offer to make room.
I would have thought that not setting up a huge tent in the shelter falls more under the lines of common sense than "hiking etiquette,"

Ok, two fold.

One, coming in after hiker midnight you cannot have an expectation that previous arrivals have taken liberties. Thus, it is appropriate to be respectful in working with your fellow hikers.

Two, tents are not permitted nor do they belong in shelters, we know this. Thus, not just as a regulation but, out of common respect and courtesy, the tent-in-shelter sleepers need to make immediate accommodation for even late arrivals.

Anyone with experience on the trail knows the scenario, it is cold and the wind block from the tent in the shelter is awesome. We also know that it is entirely inappropriate that we dominate that amount of space, thus, must give up that stolen luxury if circumstances change.

The excuse making, individual circumstance justifying, blame gaming is all nonsense. We have the unequalled opportunity to enjoy and share the wilderness experience. Absolute respect for and courtesy to our fellow hiker is the unalterable standard.