inconsiderate vs ignorant

[tagg]

I know this topic has been beaten to death on here, but I recently experienced a situation while on a 10 day section hike that I wanted to share because of the way in which in ended...

My partner and I pulled 21 miles on the first day of our trip because it was raining all day (this was a few weeks ago when Hurricane Matthew came up the coast), so there wasn't much to do other than walk. We had just entered the southern part of SNP, so camping spots were limited and we decided to push on after dark into Calf Mountain Shelter, arriving a little after 9:00pm. I had no intention of staying in the shelter, as I've only slept in a few in over 1000 miles on the AT, but my buddy was dragging and was very much looking forward to getting there, throwing down his pad, and going to sleep. It's pretty much all he talked about for the last few miles in a cold, dark rain. We expected others to be there, and understand that space is first come/first served, but we still figured it wouldn't be full.

But as we walked up, wet and tired, we saw that it was indeed full. Full of tents. Three of them to be exact, one of which was a huge 2-3 person tent. Between the tents and their gear, there was literally no space left. My buddy sat at the picnic table right next to the shelter, exhausted and over it, and let his thoughts be heard, but none of them stirred or stuck their heads out to offer to make room. I went about hanging my hammock and then found a spot for him to set up his tent, which he did, and everything was fine...but it was really frustrating, particularly to my partner. There is no way they didn't hear us come in or hear us talking about it, but they all held their breaths and didn't move a muscle until we left the table. The next morning, they packed up early and we never even got a look at them before they broke camp.

Fast forward a couple of days, and we're taking a late afternoon break at one of the huts before moving on for a few more miles, and a guy who was already set up behind the shelter walks up as we're putting our packs back on to inform us that he was one of the people tenting in the shelter that first night. He said he heard us when we got there, was surprised that anyone else showed up that late, and told us that he "didn't understand hiking etiquette" when he set up his tent in the shelter. He said that he felt badly as he listened to us set up in the rain, that he would never make that mistake again, and he apologized multiple times.

I would have thought that not setting up a huge tent in the shelter falls more under the lines of common sense than "hiking etiquette," however the fact that this dude acknowledged it and owned it when we never would have known it was him was a stand-up thing to do, and tells me that he genuinely did not know he was being inconsiderate. It has also given me pause to consider that sometimes when somebody throws their trash in the fire pit or washes their dishes in a spring or does something else ridiculous like that, maybe they're just ignorant and not actually an a-hole? Food for thought.

[ADVStrom14]

It has also given me pause to consider that sometimes when somebody throws their trash in the fire pit or washes their dishes in a spring or does something else ridiculous like that, maybe they're just ignorant and not actually an a-hole? Food for thought.

As a new hiker, I will honestly say, while I know that it is not a good idea to set up a tent in a shelter, there may be some things that I do that may not be the "right" thing to do. Truth be told, that is one of my biggest fears as I get started. I have been on some forums and seen some newbies get reamed for something they "should know better than to do" when in actuality, they didn't know better because they had not reached that part of their research yet. I read a lot and do a lot of research so I am learning things every day but most of it I have learned because of my reading and research and not because anyone bothered to take the time to teach me. (Or that there was anyone to teach me for that matter.)

[Ethesis]

As a new hiker, I will honestly say, while I know that it is not a good idea to set up a tent in a shelter, there may be some things that I do that may not be the "right" thing to do. Truth be told, that is one of my biggest fears as I get started. I have been on some forums and seen some newbies get reamed for something they "should know better than to do" when in actuality, they didn't know better because they had not reached that part of their research yet. I read a lot and do a lot of research so I am learning things every day but most of it I have learned because of my reading and research and not because anyone bothered to take the time to teach me. (Or that there was anyone to teach me for that matter.)

I have never been worried about a tent in a shelter when I'm alone or with one or two others.

At the same time when the weather is bad and space is tight It hasn't occurred to me to use a tent in a shelter.

Ok. I still haven't pitched a tent in a shelter but I'm still thinking about it.

[Slo-go'en]

I have never been worried about a tent in a shelter when I'm alone or with one or two others.

At the same time when the weather is bad and space is tight It hasn't occurred to me to use a tent in a shelter.

Ok. I still haven't pitched a tent in a shelter but I'm still thinking about it.

The thing is, you might be alone in the shelter when you set up the tent inside it, but you don't know how many others might show up later. If you wait until midnight and your still alone, then maybe set up the tent.

[Ethesis]

The thing is, you might be alone in the shelter when you set up the tent inside it, but you don't know how many others might show up later. If you wait until midnight and your still alone, then maybe set up the tent.

I tend to be places during the off seasons, but it seems that if I'm alone in an eight person shelter it should be ok to set up a tent come night fall. If people show up later and there isn't enough room, I can take it down.

The only reason I would put one up is rain/cold/blowing wind.

Otherwise it is just a waste waste of time and effort.

Now if you mean wait until hikers midnight then we are on all fours in agreement.

[rickb]

The thing is, you might be alone in the shelter when you set up the tent inside it, but you don't know how many others might show up later. If you wait until midnight and your still alone, then maybe set up the tent.

I cannot speak to the norm during the contemporary NOBO bubble, but keeping in mind that shelters also exist off the AT and people use the ones on the AT 12months a year, I would be far more put off by a Hiker arriving at my shelter so long after dark than I would be to find a tent in one early in the evening.

No matter what the Whiteblaze wisdom is regarding coming into a shelter close to midnight turns out to be, there is no way in hell I can imagine subjecting late arrival myself.

I could be out of touch, however.

[gpburdelljr]

I have never been worried about a tent in a shelter when I'm alone or with one or two others.

At the same time when the weather is bad and space is tight It hasn't occurred to me to use a tent in a shelter.
Ok. I still haven't pitched a tent in a shelter but I'm still thinking about it.

Sleep in the shelter, or sleep in a tent, but don't do both at he same time.

[Time Zone]

Everyone has their blind spots, something often forgotten or unappreciated by the more experienced (which is a blind spot in and of itself! oh how meta ...)

I agree, that was a stand-up thing to do. In theory, he could have been acting ignorant to save face, not knowing you didn't get a good look at him that morning. But you might as well give him the benefit of the doubt.

[dudeijuststarted]

yeah there's alot of BS out there. you can lecture one group, and deal with the same thing the next day. last year in MD a few city slickers walked up to the shelter by the highway overpass there and starting unloading tents and booze. they were wearing basically clothes to go clubbing in. I asked them to switch sites with me so they could party and i could sleep, and they got all defensive and standoffish, completely unaware that the AT and its shelter system wasn't for partying. this is one reason hammocks can be a dream. pitch your fly, pitch your hammock nice and dry, no need for flat earth.

[johnnybgood]

Knowing that shelter he's lucky the resident mice didn't chew a hole in his tent.
Your point is a valid one though, as there seems to be an epidemic of what I call a lack of common sense.

The reality is that our expections we have for others in the hiking world are lkely higher than we admit to.

[MuddyWaters]

Many people are just dumba$$es.

My wife has cousins that throw beer caps and cigarrette butts into yard around their trailer. When they came to our house and did that, I was ready to beat the #$@& out of them.

Some people are just ignorant and stupid and uncaring, and will always be.

Others just make mistakes and learn from them

[Don H]

You could have hung your hammock across the front of the shelter for spite

Personally I'd have said something directly to the tenters, not just being loud enough to be overheard.

Good for the one hiker for apologizing. Hope you thanked him for being honest.

Really I think a lot of people are just clueless. I hike the local trails near my home and constantly come across people who walk two abreast forcing oncoming hikers off the trail.

[Dogwood]

The hiking etiquette standard and consideration I hold myself to is when showing up at a AT shelter or camping area in the rain after dark after 9 pm I expect the shelter to be full or near capacity in the early fall especially in NPs so I anticipate camping away from the shelter or others. When others are already not stirring in their tents after 9 pm it's time for me to not use the facilities directly near them or only do so with consideration.

When I know ignorance is involved it helps me to understand the situation but it does not excuses one's behavior even my own ignorance.

Seems you met someone who genuinely considers his behavior having impact on others.

[Gambit McCrae]

My question to myself is always "would the guy next to me mind me doing "this""? If I don't know I just ask, nothing wrong with ever saying - hey man I don't know if this is cool or not but I want to dot dot dot...is that ok?

[Slo-go'en]

Sad to say, but there needs to be a sign which says "No tents in the huts". $10,000 fine and 10 years in jail for 1st violation.

[Seatbelt]

Sad to say, but there needs to be a sign which says "No tents in the huts". $10,000 fine and 10 years in jail for 1st violation.

How about revoking their tenting license with a 10-year probation?

[Longboysfan]

Sad to say, but there needs to be a sign which says "No tents in the huts". $10,000 fine and 10 years in jail for 1st violation.

I'll go with that.

[pilgrimskywheel]

I find the occupancy ratings for shelters being posted on their walls and in the guidebooks VERY helpful in this regard. If the shelter shelters six and three people have sprawled out taking it over well, don't blame me cause your reeling it in and moving over. Conversely, if the shelter shelters six and seven people are in there well, hope you're packing a tent. I like shelters - they draw the crowds away from the best campsites, and if you're looking for a spirited get-together you know just where to look! Full disclosure: I waited out a whopper snow storm three days in the Black Gap shelter with my tent up and my tarp across the shelter front. It was January and I was alone. Situation dictates.

[tdoczi]

It has also given me pause to consider that sometimes when somebody throws their trash in the fire pit or washes their dishes in a spring or does something else ridiculous like that, maybe they're just ignorant and not actually an a-hole? Food for thought.

often times,though perhaps not always, going off and doing something without first educating yourself on how to do it at least somewhat properly, is, IMO, being an a-hole. especially when your ignorance adversely impacts others.

still though, good for this guy for at least being able to learn. not something everyone can say.plenty of people will always think they can do whatever they want with the shelter if they're there first.

[Rmcpeak]

Here's what I'd done, and I've done it before. I would have said, "my guide book and other guidebooks indicate this is a [insert number here] shelter and because of your tent(s) there is not room for that number of hikers, so ya'll got to pack up those tents." I might have thrown in a "I saw a bunch of other hikers earlier and they might be headed here too." Then I point over to the tenting ground and say, "that's where tents go." Thanks.

Inexperienced folks don't understand that hikers often come in late to shelters, and the worse the weather is the more likely that will occur because, like the OP said, if it's raining then one keeps on walking.

I have arrived at shelters after midnight on several occasions, and I am always very relieved to find a space for my pad, usually up top. I would wake a shelter-tenter in the middle of the night if there were no space, or maybe ask if I could cuddle up in their tent with them. I get very cranky about people being inconsiderate and selfish.

One time I rolled in for breakfast at a shelter at about 7 a.m. -- I'd already hiked probably 2 hours, not unusual for me. There was a tent in the shelter. The dip-****s inside were too scared to look out or even say hi. I know they were in there. I heard them whispering, "oh my god we're going to die," or something. I said hello. I sat and made coffee and chomped as loudly as I could on my breakfast. Very strange.


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