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  1. #41
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    The brick quilting design especially using smaller compartments plays into lofting and CLOs of down jackets too like MB's 1000 fp Plasma. I know 1000 fp in the field is problematic. If MB had used 1000 fp Hyper Dry and a high quality DWRed 7 D what do you think about the warmth to wt ratio over a weekends's usage? in non Pacific Northwest rainy season conditions?
    Same issues as the other thread IMO....
    In these super low loft applications I think the down is just too fluid and there isn't enough space to do it's job.
    https://www.montbell.us/special/products/plasma/

    This is an innovative quilting pattern... but still. 3/4-1" diameter clusters in 1" chambers. Maybe in bone dry conditions where a quick sunning per day would revive it... if you were really pushing the grams.

    FWIW- the shell won't protect you from your own body or from environmental humidity. Only a full WP shell would do that.
    I won't be going with an UL down jacket again... too easy to beat up, singe a hole or wet out for me.

    FWIW part 2-
    When I take a down vest it is my safety piece... it isn't designated to work in any portion of my kit or counted on. It's a bonus.
    I agree it would do more for my torso most of the time... there are a few times you just have a trouble spot (elevated feet in a hammock, a cold shoulder or hip, a bit too much draft in a tight quilt when pushing the limits of it's rating) and that's a good catchall piece. Also if I was ever in real trouble- it's a piece I can wear backwards with my pack on and walk my way out with the extra insulation.

    And best of all... if I happen to find myself with pleasant company and a fire; well I can always stay outside my bag and wear it as an actual vest!

  2. #42

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    wore my nano this morning to walk the little dog
    we went to park and she sniffed around for 30 minutes
    So I wasnt really walking, more like standing there and moving once in a while

    It was 53 F, cloudy/dim light, still
    jeans, and only light synthetic teeshirt underneath
    Was I warm....Not really
    Did I survive....obviously
    I wasnt really uncomfortable...but wasnt overly comfortable either.
    As always, more insulation on rest of body, even gloves, would make it overall more comfortable. I was overall poorly insulated, as would be expected with such a minimal jacket. Just sunlight on you, makes a huge difference as well.

    I dont have much bodyfat, and am cold at 68F in house often.
    A fatter person might be comfortable a few degrees lower

    I really dont know if Id say the nanopuff is quilted. More like the very thin sheet of insulation is attached rather loosely to the outer shell with stitching. The inner liner isnt penetrated, which is why it is very wind resistant.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 11-12-2016 at 11:01.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    wore my nano this morning to walk the little dog
    we went to park and she sniffed around for 30 minutes
    So I wasnt really walking, more like standing there and moving once in a while

    It was 53 F, cloudy/dim light, still
    jeans, and only light synthetic teeshirt underneath
    Was I warm....Not really
    Did I survive....obviously
    I wasnt really uncomfortable...but wasnt overly comfortable either.
    As always, more insulation on rest of body, even gloves, would make it overall more comfortable. I was overall poorly insulated, as would be expected with such a minimal jacket. Just sunlight on you, makes a huge difference as well.

    I dont have much bodyfat, and am cold at 68F in house often.
    A fatter person might be comfortable a few degrees lower

    I really dont know if Id say the nanopuff is quilted. More like the very thin sheet of insulation is attached rather loosely to the outer shell with stitching. The inner liner isnt penetrated, which is why it is very wind resistant.
    very good, thanks. I wasn't aware it wasn't sewn through, that is interesting.

    how well does it pass moisture vapor (sweat)?..

  4. #44
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    What am I not getting here?
    If you're working up a sweat, why are you wearing an insulated mildly wind proof outer jacket?
    It's finally mildly cool in East Texas. Time to do a bit of gear testing. I'll be back.
    Wayne


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  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    From above-

    By the numbers:
    60g of PLG= 1.84 CLO (About 48.75* rating)
    A 50* EE prodigy in 2.1 Apex is 1.64 CLO and rated at 50* as a sleeping quilt.
    Now to be fair; the brick quilting on the Nanopuff is extensive so puts those closer in rating the unquilted Apex (if not worse) so it's reasonable to call that (with a light baselayer) a 55* jacket on it's own.


    Call it a 200 wt fleece for comparison- though since it has a windshell like layer, unlike a fleece you can wear it alone with a light breeze.

    Call it about 15* to what you're wearing and factor in your activity.
    yeah I saw that, thanks. I was just confirming with Rocketsocks how he got to 25*.

    I ask because I can see this as an insulated wind shirt over my base layer for the shoulder seasons. maybe even as an outer layer over a fleece if no precip

    these are coming up cheap in some places. REI has it at $138 + 20% off for Winter Sale = $110.98. kinda tempting at that price...

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondmouse View Post
    a Nano Puff, or down puffy? how much warmth does the Nano Puff add is what I'm asking with this thread...
    Sorry for the delete Second mouse, just saw this. I'm using a down puffy.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    Sorry for the delete Second mouse, just saw this. I'm using a down puffy.
    <thumbs up>

    we need a thumbs-up smiley...

  8. #48
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    Like this?


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  9. #49
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    Wayne


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  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venchka View Post

    Wayne


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    Duuuuude...

    <thumbs up>


  11. #51
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    Maybe this is an iPhone only thing.

    Wayne


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  12. #52
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    Nano-Air Jacket half price at REI Garage. TODAY ONLY.
    Is this different from the Nano-Puff?
    Wayne


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  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venchka View Post
    Nano-Air Jacket half price at REI Garage. TODAY ONLY.
    Is this different from the Nano-Puff?
    Wayne


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    yes nano air is different. it is stretchy and designed as insulation for high activity with as much as 40CFM breathability. it does have a DWR finish.

    as far as I can tell, it is similar to Polartec Alpha...

  14. #54
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    And no longer half price but thanks.
    Wayne


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  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    So... not completely going to discount the other posts but more some apples to apples perspectives and numbers for you. I am a big fan of this jacket and finally got a nano-air this year as well (waited for the 50% off sale).

    This is a synthetic piece... so all the basic down vs synthetic logic or arguments apply.
    Specifically, this is intended as active insulation (IE you may sweat) as opposed to camp insulation.
    If you want a "Stop piece" for camp... pulling out a down puffy when your activity is done and you want a one and done piece then down is better in terms of warmth to weight ratios.

    More specifically the apples to apples then is not down, but Fleece. it still works when wet, isn't affected much by body oils, and will hold its basic loft when layering (things down will not do).
    So if you compare it to a similar weight fleece like a 200 weight R2- http://www.patagonia.com/product/men...fleece#start=1
    You'll see a more accurate weight comparison 14.3 oz versus a 11.9 oz nanopuff jacket.
    You could also look to the newer pullover version too to save a bit more weight- 10.1 oz- http://www.patagonia.com/product/men...&start=1&sz=24

    Compared to a fleece product- the bulk of a PLG synthetic is much closer to down.

    By the numbers:
    60g of PLG= 1.84 CLO (About 48.75* rating)
    A 50* EE prodigy in 2.1 Apex is 1.64 CLO and rated at 50* as a sleeping quilt.
    Now to be fair; the brick quilting on the Nanopuff is extensive so puts those closer in rating the unquilted Apex (if not worse) so it's reasonable to call that (with a light baselayer) a 55* jacket on it's own.

    Now a similar down jacket would be extensively sewn through quilted as well so a micro puffy (UL) down is a bad comparison... those are closer to a 100wt fleece. You really have to look at one up to compare-
    Keeping the company the same- it falls between a down sweater at 13.1 oz (closer to 300 wt fleece in warmth) and a UL down jacket at 9.5 oz.
    http://www.patagonia.com/product/men...ests-insulated
    http://www.patagonia.com/product/men...ket/84757.html

    So...
    Do you want something you could safely wear on trail or with the risk of getting wet?
    Or do you want a stop piece that you will baby a bit and keep dry?

    I prefer to layer my windshell over the nano-puff personally- though I wear it most often as a standalone daily jacket for most of the year. I may wear several layers under it but expect it to give me a 15-20* bump in warmth over what I am wearing. The reason I prefer it; I can beat the crap out of it. If I catch a spark by the fire I won't have a geese fart of feathers. If I snag a branch gathering wood- I stitch up the shell when I feel like it. But this shell is pretty tough stuff. I did slice the shoulder on mine carrying metal studs and just left it to see. A year or more later and it hasn't run or unraveled much beyond the initial snag. It has dirt and grease on it. I don't over compress it so it has held up decently over about three years. It is 92% warm when wet and dries under body heat.

    All that said... if I just wanted a warm jacket to put on to sit in the shelter and wait for my freezer bag meal to heat while I read the journal:
    A down jacket will be warmer, pack better, and be lighter.

    But if I want a piece of gear I can use and abuse- I choose the nano-puff.
    The nano-air seems a bit warmer and has better stretch... but I'm not sure about the durability of the shell or the reduced quilting as that is unproven. That jacket is designed for alpine climbers though who will wear it with a WPB shell-so it's shell is made to slide easily into another jacket. The nano-puff is a much better outer layer for camping/backpacking.

    As to other options...
    I'm a big fan of the Cap 4 (now thermalweight) as an insulation layer for most backpacking trips at 6.2 oz and layered under a windshell.
    http://www.patagonia.com/product/men...weight#start=1

    unless I know I will be camping more and/or it is actually winter or late/early shoulder seasons... I don't bring a puffy jacket of any type. My 45* synthetic quilt serves that purpose for camp wear.
    But on a more casual trip or winter backpacking trip a nano-puff is what I choose, especially when it's handy for the first hour or at breaks when moving. And at home -this (or the nano-puff now) is what I reach for to walk out the door all winter.

    I don't like much more than a vest in down. I think that does more for you than a jacket and you aren't likely to get that tangled in the brush or fire.


    ya know, I keep coming back to this post and gleaning little bits of information that I missed before amidst the word-bomb that seems to characterize your posts.

    there's a wealth of insight and experience here that was lost on me until I slowed down and reread it a couple times. thanks for taking the (considerable) time to contribute here....

  16. #56
    Registered User Venchka's Avatar
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    Just Bill does that on purpose.
    Wayne


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  17. #57
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    Because of this article I just ordered a Nano Puff form Campor for $89.00 no tax and free shipping (Score!). Its the Bivy pullover by name 1/4 zip hooded model. I have been contemplating one of these now for a couple of years. As of now I had been using a Montbell inner down jacket that has worked well but like many have pointed out in this thread there are reasons in the SE that I wanted to give synthetic a try. I hoping for equal or more warmth than my Montbell down Inner.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    Same issues as the other thread IMO....
    In these super low loft applications I think the down is just too fluid and there isn't enough space to do it's job.
    https://www.montbell.us/special/products/plasma/

    This is an innovative quilting pattern... but still. 3/4-1" diameter clusters in 1" chambers. Maybe in bone dry conditions where a quick sunning per day would revive it... if you were really pushing the grams.

    FWIW- the shell won't protect you from your own body or from environmental humidity. Only a full WP shell would do that.
    I won't be going with an UL down jacket again... too easy to beat up, singe a hole or wet out for me.

    FWIW part 2-
    When I take a down vest it is my safety piece... it isn't designated to work in any portion of my kit or counted on. It's a bonus.
    I agree it would do more for my torso most of the time... there are a few times you just have a trouble spot (elevated feet in a hammock, a cold shoulder or hip, a bit too much draft in a tight quilt when pushing the limits of it's rating) and that's a good catchall piece. Also if I was ever in real trouble- it's a piece I can wear backwards with my pack on and walk my way out with the extra insulation.

    And best of all... if I happen to find myself with pleasant company and a fire; well I can always stay outside my bag and wear it as an actual vest!
    I hear you about the 3/4" 1000 FP in these size 1" chambers in low lofting applications but lets take into context this is a SUL piece. There's no getting around that. There's only 1.6 oz of 1000 FP in the whole jacket! It's designed for gram weenies and perhaps best used by those who have a solid grasp on layering. It's marketed for use in relatively dry environs and by those who solidly grasp the need for maintaining loft, solidly grasp the specs, and limitations of this SUL piece. The Plasma's chambers aren't simply 1" wide chambers. You said that but lets look closer. The lofting and thermal insulating flow occurs over a lengthened snaking chamber where the seams don't extend the full 1" width of the chamber. Regardless, is one assumes 1.6 oz of 1000 FP in a large down jacket is going to be a toaster in itself in 10* temps with a 10+ mph wind I have to question that conclusion.

    If one wants a warmer piece theres always Stellar's vests and jackets using 1000 FP BUT HYPER DRY 1000 FP in also a 7 D SUL fabric WITH BIGGER chambers each filled with an amount of 1000 FP that allows for easier lofting. https://www.stellarequipment.com/uk/...ood-orange-454

    In the scheme of enough warmth and CLO #'s I'm astonished you see a vest as a bonus piece rather a core piece since torso area warming including armpits, chest, and neck, and possibly groin is where many major organs are located or that have been shown to be significant areas of heat loss. That's one reason why this area is referred to as "the core." http://www.beyondcoldwaterbootcamp.c...s-of-heat-loss

    Yes MB Plasma's 7D shell with standard DWR in itself will not protect it from environmental humidity, moisture, or entirely from ones body oils or perspiration. It wasn't designed with that goal. It's meant for relatively dry low humidity apparel layering applications. How often does one usually wear a down jacket by itself without any base layer, at the minimum, which would offer additional protections to the loft in dry environs and from body oils, body grime, and perspiration? How likely would it be expected a down jacket or vest should be used with no separate shell in moist environmental conditions? Again, I would expect the folks who drop the do re mi on this SUL insulating piece know how to thermoregulate effectively AND protect their loft.

  19. #59
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    All of these 'permutations' are mind-numbing! Considering, I was cold today AFTER snowshoeing with a 150 merino base layer covered by a cheap down REI vest and an outer fleece (generic lightweight). Perhaps, the down vest should have been OVER the fleece?? The vest definitely grabbed some moisture during the 'hike.'

    It was about 26* and VERY windy in NY -- with 18 inches of new snow. Hey...it's MARCH. Was BSing with a friend for about an hour after sundown and got COLD.

    So, the fleece goes UNDER the down vest? When in camp? Same deal?

    ps:: WHAT is the HIKING ADAGE...about FLEECE FOR DAY...DOWN FOR NIGHT???

  20. #60

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    I have never found fleece warm below 5 F.

    I do not like fleece in my backpack. Iif I wear fleece, I only wear fleece under a shell or under down.


    I think fleece under a snowmobile suit might make sense, however I wouldn't know. I haven't been on a snowmobile or a motorcycle in a long time.
    Last edited by Connie; 03-19-2017 at 15:37.

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