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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    Yours is a valid concern greenlite, but how can liquid water be below freezing? The water might be just barely above, but not below.I believe that if you keep your sawyer warn before, plus shake it out when done and store next to body, religiously, you'd be fine. There is no mechanism to freeze, as long as you're quick about it.

    All this being said, i use aqua mira even in deep winter. And i don't see any reason to treat melted snow with anything, though the taste is usually weird.

    I got giardia once, diagnosed, travelling to belieze. Not fun, but not the end of the world either. Thankfully it take a while for symptoms to show up so didn't ruin our dive trip.
    Moving water can be well below freezing


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    Yours is a valid concern greenlite, but how can liquid water be below freezing? The water might be just barely above, but not below...
    When a liquid is chilled below it's freezing point, it's called supercooling. A liquid can also be heated above it's boiling point, and it's called superheating.

    I'm not sure how water in a stream manages to get supercooled, because the typical way to supercool water is to place pure water (such as obtained by distillation or reverse osmosis) in a smooth container and place it in calm below freezing conditions. Once the water is supercooled, you can instantly freeze it by tossing something into it.

    Superheating is something you have to be careful about with microwave ovens. If you place water (and it doesn't have to be pure water) in a smooth container an microwave it, it is very easy to get part of the liquid to be superheated. When you then add something to the water, the superheated parts of the water will instantly vaporize splashing scaling on you.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlight View Post
    Moving water can be well below freezing


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    Nope, don't think so, unless it is absolutely pure and has no starting point for crystals. No way stream water qualifies for super cooling. Woops, just saw huukuu said essentially same thing. I
    Last edited by colorado_rob; 12-12-2016 at 19:43.

  4. #24
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    I've mostly switched to aqua mira for winter time. It's just easier to deal with than a filter. I use either nalgene or Gatorade bottles in the winter which makes it easy enough to deal with, just dunk then wide mouth bottle in the watersource, mix the chemicals wait a few minutes and mix. I stopped using my camelbak in the winter since the hose and threads freeze until too easily.

    For what it's worth, I've used the sawyer squeeze in the winter on numerous occassions. It's quite manageable to keep it from freezing, but it's also a pain in the arse to deal with filling the filter bags and sit there squeezing it with bare hands.
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    I carry my JetBoil everywhere I hike. I like the argument for using it to boil water for purifying. I'll use AM as a backup and leave the Sawyer (and the camelback) at the house.

    Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but lots of good information ... thx

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm the elf View Post
    I've mostly switched to aqua mira for winter time. It's just easier to deal with than a filter. I use either nalgene or Gatorade bottles in the winter which makes it easy enough to deal with, just dunk then wide mouth bottle in the watersource, mix the chemicals wait a few minutes and mix. I stopped using my camelbak in the winter since the hose and threads freeze until too easily.

    For what it's worth, I've used the sawyer squeeze in the winter on numerous occassions. It's quite manageable to keep it from freezing, but it's also a pain in the arse to deal with filling the filter bags and sit there squeezing it with bare hands.
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  6. #26
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    A quick take on moving water in the Appalachians.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/walterh...in-winter/amp/
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Kevin View Post
    If I'm using running water in the winter, Aqua Mira two-part treatment.

    If I'm melting snow, I've got a heat source going already. I might as well boil it.
    It can be this uncomplicated. ^

    Then add in less pathogen activity.

  8. #28

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    I used a Kathryn pocket and pumped it dry sideways. I had a couple of issues with small amounts of water freezing, but thawed it on top of my pot, with some snow inside to make a double boiler. The few times I had to melt snow (which takes huge amounts of fuel) I didn't bother boiling fully. The snow was fresh. The filter worked well even when pumping a trickle off the top of ice.
    However, I had a particularly bad year on the AT. Chances are that if keep your filter in your jacket, sleeping bag, or buried in your pack it won't freeze. Drink lots of water as it helps prevent hypothermia and frostbite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlight View Post
    I carry my JetBoil everywhere I hike. I like the argument for using it to boil water for purifying. I'll use AM as a backup and leave the Sawyer (and the camelback) at the house.

    Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but lots of good information ... thx
    If I'm using snow as my water source that is what I do as well. One of the reasons reasons I'm a fan of jetboil
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    For instance, I've dropped a thermometer in alpine(high elevation) running/liquid water to find the temp of it to be in the 20's* F.
    The freezing point of water changes by less than 1/100 degree Celsius as you move from Death Valley to the top of Mt. Everest.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeGoldRush View Post
    The freezing point of water changes by less than 1/100 degree Celsius as you move from Death Valley to the top of Mt. Everest.
    Has DW been making his/her fantastic claims yet again? It's either his/her imagination, or a busted thermometer.

    Under high pressures, of course, ice turns to water, even well below 32 degrees, it's why ice is slippery, a by product of the water-unique property that is actually expands when it freezes.

    Out in the field, water just plain doesn't exist in liquid form when its temperature is below 32F. Or show me a valid reference to the contrary. After seeing the claims already made in this thread, I started to have a glimmer of doubt, so I did verify to myself I wasn't having an O.L.D. attack ( a common occurrence these days), and found plenty of references that in this case I wasn't.

    In any case, sounds like original question resolved, no Sawyer to be used in extreme cold conditions, which is wise. Do keep in mind though, melting snow/ice for water does take a lot of extra fuel, so plan accordingly. The mountaineering rule of thumb for carrying fuel on extended winter trips is 8 ounces of fuel per person per day. I have done dozens of deep cold and sometimes extended (2-3 week) cold trips and found this rule of thumb to be extremely conservative. My own rule of thumb is 6 ounces per person per day, and have found even this to be conservative, the real number being more like 5. So we carry 6 to have some margin. I'm talking about either canister fuel or white gas, both have just about the same energy per ounce. These rules of thumb assume all your daily water comes from melting snow. Thankfully many times you can indeed find flowing streams in the dead of winter.

    Sorry folks, again, liquid water below 32 degrees exists only in extreme circumstances, certainly not in mountain streams. Google up "super cooled water" and check things out.

  12. #32

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    Just want to point out... Even with 32F water coming from a running source, as soon as you bring that out into the 10F atmosphere and increase the "surface area" of the water by squeezing it through tiny tubes of the filter, I would expect it to freeze very readily... No?

  13. #33

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    I'm planning on an early March start... I think my plan is to use the Sawyer as normal if temps are above 32F, and just drink untreated/unfiltered water if it's colder than that. Yolo?

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hosaphone View Post
    Just want to point out... Even with 32F water coming from a running source, as soon as you bring that out into the 10F atmosphere and increase the "surface area" of the water by squeezing it through tiny tubes of the filter, I would expect it to freeze very readily... No?
    Exactly. And it's not like you are going to keep it warm with your hands in those conditions. The water has more mass than your hands and could easily overwhelm your attempts to keep the filter from freezing while using it.

  15. #35

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    I have never used a Steri-Pen as a single source of water treatment, but rather as a way of treating water quickly on trail when I come to a water source and want to camel up and not carry a lot of water. When used this way I can go 10-14 days on trail with one set of batteries. In warm weather I have used a Sawyer Mini for the same purpose. I tend to use Aqua Mira to treat water in camp. The SteriPen folks will have information on how much water you can treat on a set of batteries. One tip: always remove your batteries when storing the SteriPen.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_rob View Post
    Has DW been making his/her fantastic claims yet again? It's either his/her imagination, or a busted thermometer.

    Out in the field, water just plain doesn't exist in liquid form when its temperature is below 32F. Or show me a valid reference to the contrary. After seeing the claims already made in this thread, I started to have a glimmer of doubt, so I did verify to myself I wasn't having an O.L.D. attack ( a common occurrence these days),...
    You are wrong. Science is right. I'm going by the fantastic idiotic? unfounded? claims of the scientific community who are more interested in facts than your feelings or personal beliefs or what you sense or mythology. Why attack me? You attack my findings? What did I have a broken thermometer? You try to belittle me? Jag off. Go attack science that says liquid water can certainly occur at temps well below 0* C IN THE FIELD!

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...reeze-1120813/

    http://io9.gizmodo.com/5862789/whats...turns-into-ice

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1123133123.htm

  17. #37
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    Dogwood,
    Come on man!
    3 references to the same laboratory experiment?
    No worries.
    What we need is a reasonably accurate thermometer, a mountain stream and the ambient temperature below freezing for a few days.
    Surely some of the mountain dwelling members here can help us out. Rob? You're nominated.
    Lol!
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  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    For instance, I've dropped a thermometer in alpine(high elevation) running/liquid water to find the temp of it to be in the 20's* F.
    on what planet?

  19. #39
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    I'm declaring shenanigans

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktaadn View Post
    I'm declaring shenanigans
    is that calling bull Shyte?

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