"Massachusetts hiker, 26, found dead after Christmas Eve hike in White Mountains"

[rafe]

LMFAO! Only that kind of omnipotence and omniscience could come from beyond the grave! Seriously laughing so hard I have to tinkle a little. Any word on what this poor dead kid had with him - and not with him? I'm guessing no poles or crampons. I've got to go back and read the whole thread - fortunately there's lots of meteorological winter left! Thank you Walter, for making peeking out my tent fly at the planet Hoth funny again!

Wrong, the article says he had crampons.

No mention of poles, but 99% of White Mountain winter hikers use them, and I'd be amazed if Jack didn't. Yeah, I know you've got a thing about hiking poles.

[pilgrimskywheel]

[QUOTE=rafe;2115517]Says the most prolific poster on this and other equally contentious threads.

Right. (You've used that line before. Prolificacy and contentiousness are completely irrelevant, or did you want to have a short benign conversation about nothing much in particular?) But, I'm not out hiking now am I? I'm snug in my hole waiting for meteorological winter to end, marveling at the willingness of my fellow trolls to advocate for even the most ignorant on trail behaviors yet again. Okay, he wasn't on trail BFD - his death in the Whites impacts everyone who will follow him necessarily - you're right it does make it kinda personal. I get a kick out of the folks trying to convince us that going out and getting killed is the zenith of American freedom, and the penultimate demonstration of passionate outdoorsmanship. "Proud death." Said the man who died quietly at home flat on his back with his boots OFF. Cut it out. "The dead know one thing: that it is better to be alive."

[pilgrimskywheel]

Wrong, the article says he had crampons.

No mention of poles, but 99% of White Mountain winter hikers use them, and I'd be amazed if Jack didn't. Yeah, I know you've got a thing about hiking poles.

My thing is, while realizing that correlations are not causal, I'm conducting an informal poll on poles. And I'm wondering if you noticed that it appears that the last half dozen "experienced" hikers we've heard about all dying by misadventure have something oddly in common? They almost all seem to be pole shunners. In the case of "Sherpa" it seemed to be a source of pride as his missing information on this site's homepage says: "No trekking poles - he doesn't use them." As if to say that under no circumstances would he deign to pick up sticks because for some reason he'd transcended the hiking aid now found so useful by 99% of long distance hikers.

[Colter]

But Holden had proper equipment: winter hiking pants, a head lamp, crampons, layers and layers of fleece, a puffy jacket, the shell jacket rescuers would later find he had put on upside down.

Like most of these situations it's about decision making. He had the gear, he had the skills, but for some reason he didn't take the time to act. I'm confident he could have been plenty warm if he'd piled on the fleece and put on his rain jacket before he was cold and wet.

I am a huge believer in peeling clothing before I'm sweated up, and in adding clothing before I'm cold.

[ScareBear]

See, now you're just politicizing it to fit it into your own world view. We get it, you feel put upon and down trodden and the man is out to get you. Just the threat of regulation makes you insecure and boils your blood.

I've lived in NH most of my life, and never once felt threatened that the various agencies that maintain the forest were over regulating anything.

What's it say on NH license plates?

[pilgrimskywheel]

What's it say on NH license plates?

It's says eight six seven five three oh nine. Why?

[Puddlefish]

What's it say on NH license plates?

Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils. It's likely stolen from a French Revolutionary phrase. It's about not living in slavery, it's not about do whatever the hell you want without regard for your fellow citizens.

My point is that nothing in NH forest regulations is remotely pertinent to this death.

[Puddlefish]

Well, as long as you're okay. I hiked through the Smokies in 2012 and 13 and it was free. Today it's not - it's $20 to hike through. $4 bucks a night to stay at a shelter, but as you are likely aware we're talking about Tennessee NOT Live free or Die New Hampshire. So what? It is an example of EXACTLY what I'm talking about. One of the best and most unique wildernesses in the country made into a real drag by real over-regulation due to overuse and folks being as stupid as they feel they have a right to be. The go to solution for bureaucratic nabobs is to slap a fee on it, and to get some under-qualified apparatchik puffed up with a uniform and a badge to collect them. I'm not politicizing anything, and my world view is I don't care to have the cantankerous old ridge runner follow me around the park to make sure I'm doing it right while regaling me with tales of other idiots he's had to herd through the park. Which is a completely true story by the way. Lets just imagine that some folks go hiking specifically to be left alone - not for the wonderful dialogue and constant social interaction.

Again, you seem to feel the need to make this about you. We get it, rules are bad when they inconvenience you in the slightest tiny bit. Still completely irrelevant to this thread.

[pilgrimskywheel]

Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils. It's likely stolen from a French Revolutionary phrase. It's about not living in slavery, it's not about do whatever the hell you want without regard for your fellow citizens.

My point is that nothing in NH forest regulations is remotely pertinent to this death.

While I agree completely with the first, I take issue with the second point here as I think the NH forest regulation which says on the sign "TURN BACK NOW IF THE WEATHER IS BAD." is completely pertinent to his death. (See posted previously.)

[MuddyWaters]

But Holden had proper equipment: winter hiking pants, a head lamp, crampons, layers and layers of fleece, a puffy jacket, the shell jacket rescuers would later find he had put on upside down.

Like most of these situations it's about decision making. He had the gear, he had the skills, but for some reason he didn't take the time to act. I'm confident he could have been plenty warm if he'd piled on the fleece and put on his rain jacket before he was cold and wet.

I am a huge believer in peeling clothing before I'm sweated up, and in adding clothing before I'm cold.

+

people die with proper equipment all the time.
Take Everest for instance

Poor decisions can offset "proper" equipment.

[pilgrimskywheel]

Again, you seem to feel the need to make this about you. We get it, rules are bad when they inconvenience you in the slightest tiny bit. Still completely irrelevant to this thread.

Actually, this site is about my opinion. We're not standing in the queue at his wake dude. And, I think if you re-read the thread my opinion is manifestly relevant here. Sorry you don't agree. No, actually I'm not. I happen to think if you are looking to get killed then you should do it in private, and not imperil your would-be-rescuers, or traumatize the 6 or 8 good folks who have to carry your body out of a place specifically set aside for the rest of us to enjoy. Not to mention your family, and your community. This affects us all. Moving on.

[Tipi Walter]

He was in deep backcountry when he died. Ed Abbey would have called it a proud death. So tell me again, was it his right to die out there, or not?

Of course it was his right to die out there because any activity we have the right to engage in can result in death. Thousands of people die in car wrecks because they have the right to drive on the highways. Do they therefore have the right to die? It goes with the activity. Beyond this there is suicide.

Study the case of Guy Waterman.

"Mr. Waterman climbed to the top of Mt Lafayette, a 5,249 peak in the White Mountains in northern New Hampshire, and sat down to die in below-zero temperatures." New York Times.

But Holden had proper equipment: winter hiking pants, a head lamp, crampons, layers and layers of fleece, a puffy jacket, the shell jacket rescuers would later find he had put on upside down.

Like most of these situations it's about decision making. He had the gear, . . . . .

But no, he did not have the gear to spend the night. He did not have the proper equipment. Please read PennyPincher's post below.

Wow. I never have dayhiked in the Whites without being prepared to spend a night in case I got in trouble.

Exactly. Repeat this 44 times.

it does not take much more than the day hiker already carries:

shelter - little more than a pound for a practical bivy
foam pad - from about 8 oz
bag - the critical item to extend your life by minimizing energy expenditure - a good 3 lb down bag for about 0 or 4 lb for -20

if you meter out the snacks that you carry, 10+ days in cold conditions is realistic - during the 900 day siege of Lenningrad the daily ration toward the end was less than 100 calories, many perished but many made it

I wish all the posters here would read this post and the other post by PennyPincher. Bring a shelter, a pad and a bag. Prepare to camp where you stand. Holden did not have this gear.

[QUOTE=pilgrimskywheel;2115519]

I get a kick out of the folks trying to convince us that going out and getting killed is the zenith of American freedom, and the penultimate demonstration of passionate outdoorsmanship. "Proud death." Said the man who died quietly at home flat on his back with his boots OFF. Cut it out. "The dead know one thing: that it is better to be alive."

It's difficult to know what the dead are thinking but there are many cases of life-after-death experiences but this is another subject.

It's not the freedom to get killed which is important, but the freedom to engage in an activity which may result in our deaths---this is what we are discussing. Most any activity we love to do can kill us. In fact, what we love will kill us, eventually. The alcoholic who loves booze dies from liver cancer. The smoker who loves tobacco etc. The warrior who loves war is killed in combat. The wing suit guy who loves flying dies against a rock. The guy who loves hiking may very well die on a hike. Love is about passion and with passion comes both life and death.

"He died doing what he loved" may not mean that he loved dying, only that he died doing something he loved.

[Puddlefish]

Actually, this site is about my opinion. We're not standing in the queue at his wake dude. And, I think if you re-read the thread my opinion is manifestly relevant here. Sorry you don't agree. No, actually I'm not. I happen to think if you are looking to get killed then you should do it in private, and not imperil your would-be-rescuers, or traumatize the 6 or 8 good folks who have to carry your body out of a place specifically set aside for the rest of us to enjoy. Not to mention your family, and your community. This affects us all. Moving on.

You're making no sense. You commented on NH regulations initially as if they were bad. Then you told a story about how regulations made you personally sad. Then you posted a picture of a sign, and suddenly NH regulations were good. Which is it?

I don't care the slightest bit what your other opinions may be, that's why I didn't comment on any of them. If you're going to slam perfectly reasonable NH regulations, or just rant about how the world is out to get you personally, maybe you should start your own thread?

[Tipi Walter]

+

people die with proper equipment all the time.
Take Everest for instance

Poor decisions can offset "proper" equipment.

But the equipment alpine mountaineers carry save thousands of their lives per year, and their proper equipment keeps thousands of them alive in terrible conditions. They must have crampons and tents and down suits and stoves to melt snow for water and of course jumars and ropes and ice axes. Gear and equipment is vital for them, no doubt about it. And when they are caught in epic storms, where do they go if they can? Back to their equipment and tents and bags.

What kills most mountaineers is not what killed Holden. They die from crevasses, avalanches, falling ice and rock, bad rope technique, 100mph wind storms at -20F, inability to move due to either frostbite or cerebral or pulmonary edema.

As PennyPincher mentioned, "I have never dayhiked in the Whites without being prepared to spend a night in case I got in trouble." Amen, end of story.

[Slo-go'en]

You're making no sense. You commented on NH regulations initially as if they were bad. Then you told a story about how regulations made you personally sad. Then you posted a picture of a sign, and suddenly NH regulations were good. Which is it?

Actually, the "worst weather in America" sign is more of a warning sign and offers advice. Of course, the penalty of ignoring that advice could be death.

[pilgrimskywheel]

You're making no sense. You commented on NH regulations initially as if they were bad. Then you told a story about how regulations made you personally sad. Then you posted a picture of a sign, and suddenly NH regulations were good. Which is it?

I don't care the slightest bit what your other opinions may be, that's why I didn't comment on any of them. If you're going to slam perfectly reasonable NH regulations, or just rant about how the world is out to get you personally, maybe you should start your own thread?

That's actually not what happened at all. And, I'm making sense. Now you're just being argumentative for arguments sake. Talk about irrelevant. Stop obfuscating the facts with useless noise and minutia. Just so we're clear - if you walk by the previously posted NH sign and ignore it and die it's not a shocker, okay? If you die needlessly, pointlessly, and tragically in a completely avoidable manner where it can't help but negatively affect hundreds of others - we're going to talk about you after you're gone. l find the "noble death" platitudes ridiculous. I've got a picture around here somewhere of the tree which nearly crushed my tent at Olallie Lake Oregon. Had it come eight more inches south it would have crushed my skull like a November pumpkin. That's an unavoidable force majeure, and I would have died in a tragic hiking accident doing what I love, no not snoring. Nothing noble about it. I'm very pleased to still be here BTW. Diving head first into a shark tank, while some do love it, is an entirely different situation. Because not only is it completely avoidable, but we don't need a team of experts to ferret out what went wrong when you don't climb back out again. Think that's cool? Okay - whatever flips your nightie! It maybe time to talk to someone.

[FreeGoldRush]

See, now you're just politicizing it to fit it into your own world view. We get it, you feel put upon and down trodden and the man is out to get you. Just the threat of regulation makes you insecure and boils your blood.

I've lived in NH most of my life, and never once felt threatened that the various agencies that maintain the forest were over regulating anything.

You did not direct this comment at me, but you haven't read too much history, have you? Dismissing concerns about government regulation as nothing more than paranoia is incredibly naive. It is also very dismissive of tremendous suffering that has taken place throughout world history. Characterizing that concern as "politicizing" shows that you are good at repeating words you have heard on TV news entertainment. And I hate to crush your feelings, but since you chose to use your own feelings as support for your argument, I will add that your feelings don't change history. It is what it is.

[Secondmouse]

You know what? Enough is enough. You don't need any training or experience for this totally avoidable situation that ended in pointless tragedy. Why? Because just like the old saying goes: "Even a fool knows enough to come in from the rain." You hike up a mountain December 26th in a rain storm and keep going you turn into a Popsicle - not really a shocker. How folks are still head scratching on this one is beyond me.

you know what? the more I read of what you write the more you look like you don't have much experience at all...

[Secondmouse]

Im with ya, makes no sense to me...something is missing about this story. Could be as simple as he disregarded his training, or he may have had medical emergency, we just don't know yet.

one of the conditions of hypothermia is impaired mental function, cognition, decision making. he may have disregarded his training about how to recognize the onset of these symptoms until it was too late. someone mentioned that he was found with his shell on upside down?

if he had proper training he should have been able to recognize the onset of his symptoms and taken remedial action. but simply knowing how to do something does not equal being able to actually do it. it takes practice (experience) to pull off even simple tasks under anything less than ideal conditions. it's shocking how many people find it difficult to light a simple campfire on a dry sunny day, let alone attempt it in the rain with large muscle tremors...

anyone who wants to get an idea the difficulty, try the man-in-the-creek drill I wrote about above. a lot of so-called u-tube survival experts fail this challenge with stunning regularity...

[pilgrimskywheel]

you know what? the more I read of what you write the more you look like you don't have much experience at all...

Yeah, okay. 2 Outward Bound courses ages 16 & 17 Voyageur School MN, Hurricane Island School ME. US Navy Sea Cadet ages 12-17 Naval Air Station SOWEY. I did Coast Guard Basic at 16 - Cape May NJ. United States Army Airborne, (13F1P & 19B Forward Observer and Combat Medic) Sergeant type one each OD green - eleven years. Honorably discharged 2004. FT11 AT12,13 TXNST13 PCT14 CDT15,16 AT Sections 14,15,16 and now I'm still messing with the CDT in sections. Just for giggles: I got my degree in psychology on the GI Bill after I opened the first boot camp for juvenile delinquents in MA, where I was the Senior Drill Instructor of the wilderness based Project Adventure program and training school. I trained squads of teenage killers how to, among other skills, climb and work as a team member while surviving in the back country of a 100,000 square acre forest. So actually I'm a highly trained and tested expert in ocean and wilderness survival, and in training kids and young soldiers how to do it too.

To remain on topic. This was a preventable death. Sad but true. I see only the absence of training and experience here, along with not enough equipment or a lack of ability to deploy effectively what equipment the young man may have had. How do I know well, have I passed the voir dire, or should I continue?