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  1. #1

    Default What happened to HYOH?

    The combination of the plane crash thread in GSMNP and the Mass. hiker who perished revealed some really ugly Monday morning quarterbacking in this forum. The criticism came so quick I am fairly sure it started before the ill-fated plane even hit the ground. Everyone and their brother has chimed in on the carelessness shown in both tragedies. To be sure- Enough facts have not been released in either case to make any assumptions on what really happened. Period. In the end we should show some remorse and offer similar situations we have found ourselves in so that others may learn.

    And along the same thought...Since when did we, as a group of adventurers, get so damn judgey? HYOH has always been about doing what we do in the way we want to do it. We have all made mistakes, some more epic than others. But we learn something from it and move forward. Many an adventurer have said that the real fun, sport, adventure, challenge only starts when stuff goes wrong. I am not advocating carelessness, but I am saying lets not flame away on people who made mistakes similar to ones we have made and just didn't get a good outcome.

  2. #2
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    Internet forums are the perfect venue for Monday morning quarterbacking.
    This one is a fine example. Almost every thread results in heated debate.

    i think of online forums/blogs/fb etc as a form of gold mining- you have to sift through a lot of useless rubble before you can find a gold nugget.

  3. #3

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    Set - hut! The 'H' is for Hike. And so on. So: PYOP! Known killers: small planes, the Whites in December, trekking w/o poles, Whitney w/o crampons, hot water bottles, mountaineering, etc., etc. The sign says: "Ecotourism is inherently dangerous..."

  4. #4

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    The HYOH mantra is not used as a justification to ignore the lessons gleaned from catastrophes. Mountaineers write long essays in their Accident Reports to study what went wrong and how it all could've been prevented.

    For instance, the Kate Matrosova event caused several rescue first responders on the scene to offer their judgments. Erik Thatcher was in a 10 man rescue team that located Kate and he wrote---

    "Kate's kit was rather stripped down to the bare essentials. No partner, no bivy gear, and even relatively light on essential layers in my opinion. This in itself is no sin. What it means is that she was operating with no room for error." ERIK THATCHER.


    In the Comment section, Erik mentions what part of her kit she did not have---


    "The first is mittens. She had regular gloves which in my experience just doesn't cut it. The second is a neoprene ski mask . . . .no snow shoes, no crampons were on when she was found." ERIK THATCHER.

    So, should we therefore ignore his opinion and in fact censor it in favor of the HYOH policy??

    Ralph23 says "when did we as adventurers get so damn judgey?" and then he says we should learn something from it and move forward. The learning from it endeavor is done on forum discussions like this---because all discussions of these events by fellow experienced outdoorsmen are by their nature
    so-called "ugly Monday morning quarterbacking", at least according to Ralph23.

    Real ugly quarterbacking would be to say Person X was a complete idiot who asked for it, or good riddance, or what a clueless fool, or whatever. When the Chris McCandless epic comes up, many many postings degenerate into such mindless idiotic comments. "He deserved it!!!" they howl and do so in a heartless manner.

    I'm not talking about these kind of comments here. Re-read Thatcher's assessment as above. Thoughtful people need to study these events and offer their opinions. HYOH cannot be used to censor reasoned opinions.

  5. #5

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    It's an internet forum dedicated to backpacking. It's not a forum dedicated to validating free will and hiking your own hike at any cost, it's not a funeral home website where people should necessarily be respectful. People will rush to judgement based on minimal information, this site also isn't a jury.

    People have strong judge'y opinions based on their own world views and hiking techniques that have served them well enough. At times I find certain posters to be annoyingly judgey, and I'll post reasons why their advice might not be pertinent, or why it might be offensive... or I'll just ignore it. No doubt, those same people find my opinions annoying.

    What I do like about this site, is that there's no one sided removal of posts that disagree with the moderator's opinion. I spent some time on a sailing forum where the site owner would delete any post that questioned the safety of solo sailing/cruising, while letting the opposing posts stand. That was seriously annoying.

  6. #6
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    For me, these tragic stories bring thoughts of "there but for the grace of god go I." I don't think the MA hiker thread has been particularly judgemental. I happen to know that area from firsthand experience, and have survived (so far) a few dozen winter day hikes in the White Mountains. My advice/suggestions inevitably fall on the side of caution and prudence.

    Rule #1 for me is in the bolded text, quoted by Tipi above:

    ""Kate's kit was rather stripped down to the bare essentials. No partner, no bivy gear, and even relatively light on essential layers in my opinion. This in itself is no sin. What it means is that she was operating with no room for error."

  7. #7

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    Puddlefish---In other words, ALL forum posts are opinions---and opinions only. Without the expression of opinions there would be no internet forums.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    Puddlefish---In other words, ALL forum posts are opinions---and opinions only. Without the expression of opinions there would be no internet forums.

    And the friction between differences of opinion, is where education is found....

  9. #9
    Registered User evyck da fleet's Avatar
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    Well I'm not sure what the plane crash has to do with hiking other than the location, but I can gather useful information from the posts regarding the Whites. I don't hike in the winter, or what anyone in the northeast would consider winter, but that doesn't mean I can't get caught in inclement weather in shoulder seasons. I'd rather hear how hikers experienced in similar conditions prepare and react instead of having to figure it out on my own.

    It's an internet forum, you'll find what you are looking for and some things you'd rather not have read.

  10. #10

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    HYOH is fine, but it doesn't mean hike stupid.
    Follow slogoen on Instagram.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    HYOH is fine, but it doesn't mean hike stupid.
    +1 Amen to that! See: "Out of Nowhere: Disaster and Tourism in the White Mountains" By Dr. Eric Purchase. We're going to learn from the mistakes of others so as not to repeat them ourselves. And remember: "If you die first - we're splitting up your gear!" (Dibs on yer poles.)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    The HYOH mantra is not used as a justification to ignore the lessons gleaned from catastrophes. Mountaineers write long essays in their Accident Reports to study what went wrong and how it all could've been prevented.

    For instance, the Kate Matrosova event caused several rescue first responders on the scene to offer their judgments. Erik Thatcher was in a 10 man rescue team that located Kate and he wrote---

    "Kate's kit was rather stripped down to the bare essentials. No partner, no bivy gear, and even relatively light on essential layers in my opinion. This in itself is no sin. What it means is that she was operating with no room for error." ERIK THATCHER.


    In the Comment section, Erik mentions what part of her kit she did not have---


    "The first is mittens. She had regular gloves which in my experience just doesn't cut it. The second is a neoprene ski mask . . . .no snow shoes, no crampons were on when she was found." ERIK THATCHER.

    So, should we therefore ignore his opinion and in fact censor it in favor of the HYOH policy??

    Ralph23 says "when did we as adventurers get so damn judgey?" and then he says we should learn something from it and move forward. The learning from it endeavor is done on forum discussions like this---because all discussions of these events by fellow experienced outdoorsmen are by their nature
    so-called "ugly Monday morning quarterbacking", at least according to Ralph23.

    Real ugly quarterbacking would be to say Person X was a complete idiot who asked for it, or good riddance, or what a clueless fool, or whatever. When the Chris McCandless epic comes up, many many postings degenerate into such mindless idiotic comments. "He deserved it!!!" they howl and do so in a heartless manner.

    I'm not talking about these kind of comments here. Re-read Thatcher's assessment as above. Thoughtful people need to study these events and offer their opinions. HYOH cannot be used to censor reasoned opinions.
    Tipi's best post to date. And that's saying a lot
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

  13. #13
    Registered User Engine's Avatar
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    Taking a critical look at incidents is what allows for a root cause analysis, and maybe avoiding a repeat of the same accident chain.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
    “He is richest who is content with the least, for content is the wealth of nature.” –Socrates

  14. #14
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    A$$holes are just like opinions we all have one......


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  15. #15

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    I take hike your own hike to mean "do it your way". if you're not experienced enough to have your own way, it's probably a good idea to stick to the tried and true.

    when it comes to safety and planning for accidents and extreme weather, there's a thin line between doing it your own way and foolishness. someone well versed and experienced in wilderness survival techniques doesn't need to carry as much stuff as others...

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post

    "Kate's kit was rather stripped down to the bare essentials. No partner, no bivy gear, and even relatively light on essential layers in my opinion. This in itself is no sin. What it means is that she was operating with no room for error." ERIK THATCHER.


    In the Comment section, Erik mentions what part of her kit she did not have---


    "The first is mittens. She had regular gloves which in my experience just doesn't cut it. The second is a neoprene ski mask . . . .no snow shoes, no crampons were on when she was found." ERIK THATCHER.

    So, should we therefore ignore his opinion and in fact censor it in favor of the HYOH policy??
    I would take exception to his making specific criticisms...its one thing to say she didn't have adequate clothing, but to say every hiker has to carry a pair of mittens is ridiculous...there are many different kinds of gloves and hats and not all work the same for each individual. I wouldn't dream of going on an overnight trip in the winter without bringing a pair of gloves, but the last two winter trips I've done I've never put them on. Different people have different tolerances for the cold and what may be necessary for one person is just extra weight to another. From what I was reading in the article about the guy that died in the whites over Christmas he was said to have adequate gear for the conditions, which indicated to me that he waited too long to put layers on or to seek shelter from the wind and became disoriented due to hypothermia. I'd bet he didn't have a pair of mittens with him either, but even if he had had them, it wouldn't have helped him put his coat on right side up.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondmouse View Post
    I take hike your own hike to mean "do it your way". if you're not experienced enough to have your own way, it's probably a good idea to stick to the tried and true.

    when it comes to safety and planning for accidents and extreme weather, there's a thin line between doing it your own way and foolishness. someone well versed and experienced in wilderness survival techniques doesn't need to carry as much stuff as others...
    Sorry, but - okay, I'm not sorry: It's this attitude that causes mountains to eat hikers and misadventurers alike, and it's called hubris. I'm sooooo experienced I don't even need to carry any ________ . Or, as in this case sooooo experienced I do it alone! Hike, swim, etc., etc. You ever notice how everyone is always surprised, and nobody can figure out what happened because the victim was an "experienced" hiker, swimmer, hang-glider, flying-squirrel-parachutist, etc., etc.? I've read and watched everything I could find on Geraldine Largay's tragic case, because as a psychologist and AT hiker it fascinates me. I saw some YouTube video where a couple of hacks were conducting their own search and making a movie of it. (Terrible - and in wicked poor taste. Really so bad it's good.) It was chock full of pseudoscience and SAR quackery, and the would-be-hero kept repeating: "...it's weird because she was so experienced..." or, "...as an experienced hiker she'd do this..." never guessing at the correct, and almost unbelievable truth. Fact is experience helps, and is a completely relative and subjective term. Nobody knows just what they'll do when the poop hits the prop. But, here's a hint: if everybody else thinks it's a bad idea - it probably is. And, if everyone else has a life preserver on - just maybe you should think about one too.

  18. #18

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    And honestly, if you've ever been on a season 4 outing and lost your ability to use your hands in your wicked expensive gloves - then you know how important mittens are. That's when the real terror starts for me, at handless and alone near nowhere, followed by an almost irresistible panic that starts with a tightness in the chest as your belly fills with ice water, and the world looks like your seeing it through a paper towel tube. Then you make the next mistake - like not backing down in your own footprints for example, as you for some reason believe that the safety you need MUST be just a little further. And, it was just a day hike so I left my bag and tent behind. (Nope, not me.) Then you have a reprieve fantasy - the final fantasy - which begins: "I'll be okay when.."

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondmouse View Post
    I take hike your own hike to mean "do it your way". if you're not experienced enough to have your own way, it's probably a good idea to stick to the tried and true.

    when it comes to safety and planning for accidents and extreme weather, there's a thin line between doing it your own way and foolishness. someone well versed and experienced in wilderness survival techniques doesn't need to carry as much stuff as others...
    Of course, in order to gain experience you have to put yourself in situations which can go either way. Most of us come out of that situation okay and learn to never do that again, but some don't come out so fortunate.
    Follow slogoen on Instagram.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronk View Post
    I... to say every hiker has to carry a pair of mittens is ridiculous....
    In the Whites, in winter, above treeline, far from it. I carried spares when I did such things. So did most people.
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

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