Information vs. responsibility

[pilgrimskywheel]

+1 to this. Well said and from an informed rather than speculative and opinionated point of view as well.

Furlough

I think you have some reading left to catch up on.

Perhaps my having not thrown my life away on a clearly terrible series of decisions makes me arrogant. So be it. You have to push the edge and calculate it correctly in order to come back and talk smack. So, here I be - not sorry.

Talk about speculation! Seriously? Said the pot to the kettle.

You want to learn from this? Here you go - DON'20170101_112853.jpgT DO IT! Read the sign, turn around, go home alive. Know your hiking RESPONSIBILITY, as it turns out there is a NH law to cover this, and follow it. Follow the NH Code of Responsible Hiking and live to hike another day.

You don't have a God given, or American right of your freedoms, as it turns out, to march up into the tops of the White Mountains in a mid-winter storm and predictably die - Eagle Scout or not. To do so in my opinion is the height of actual arrogance combined with a lethal hubris. Why? Because it ruins it for everyone else that these places are set aside for the enjoyment of for starters. The rescuers, your family, the community, and everyone who survives and is touched by your loss.

Seriously, enough. There is a giant sign at every trail head in NH and it might as well say on a snowy winter's day: "Abandon hope all ye who enter!" Duh. I have the same contempt for those who litter, violate LNT, aren't bear responsible, or base jump off Half Dome and splatter biscuit. Then there's always somebody around to say: "Well, they died doing what they loved!" Like that makes it okay.

Still trying to figure out what happened? Here you go: these folks did what the 64,000 other members on here know good and well not to do, and it killed them. Not a whole heck of lot to speculate on here folks.

Definitely learn from this - but that doesn't mean you have to support it. That's why it'll happen again.

[johnnybgood]

Slovenia needs more money, trust me...

That said, perhaps NH folks might consider an income tax. It's not like NH is a retirement haven like FL...but...unlikely. Its that "Live Free or Die" thing, I guess...

Out west, its not like the mountain rescue services are all that much better. Even in a place like SLC.

Perhaps they should, but if you own property in New Hampshire you'll pay an extremely high rate that ranks 2nd highest behind New Jersey.
Two states that share little in common-- aesthetically speaking or demographically either.

[rafe]

"Seriously, enough." Maybe time to heed your own words.

[rafe]

Pilgrim, you don't speak for the rest of Whiteblaze. People can and do hike the White Mountains safely, year-round.

[pilgrimskywheel]

Pilgrim, you don't speak for the rest of Whiteblaze. People can and do hike the White Mountains safely, year-round.

No kidding - that was a rhetorical example of a large population of folks who know what to do, and not to do, in order to safely share the White Mountains. How is it my fault folks want to advocate for doing something completely wrong, and we're supposed to what? Just accept it? Cut it out. "Stupidity should be painful." And it is.

[Furlough]

I think you have some reading left to catch up on.

Perhaps my having not thrown my life away on a clearly terrible series of decisions makes me arrogant. So be it. You have to push the edge and calculate it correctly in order to come back and talk smack. So, here I be - not sorry.

Talk about speculation! Seriously? Said the pot to the kettle.

You want to learn from this? Here you go - DON'20170101_112853.jpgT DO IT! Read the sign, turn around, go home alive. Know your hiking RESPONSIBILITY, as it turns out there is a NH law to cover this, and follow it. Follow the NH Code of Responsible Hiking and live to hike another day.

You don't have a God given, or American right of your freedoms, as it turns out, to march up into the tops of the White Mountains in a mid-winter storm and predictably die - Eagle Scout or not. To do so in my opinion is the height of actual arrogance combined with a lethal hubris. Why? Because it ruins it for everyone else that these places are set aside for the enjoyment of for starters. The rescuers, your family, the community, and everyone who survives and is touched by your loss.

Seriously, enough. There is a giant sign at every trail head in NH and it might as well say on a snowy winter's day: "Abandon hope all ye who enter!" Duh. I have the same contempt for those who litter, violate LNT, aren't bear responsible, or base jump off Half Dome and splatter biscuit. Then there's always somebody around to say: "Well, they died doing what they loved!" Like that makes it okay.

Still trying to figure out what happened? Here you go: these folks did what the 64,000 other members on here know good and well not to do, and it killed them. Not a whole heck of lot to speculate on here folks.

Definitely learn from this - but that doesn't mean you have to support it. That's why it'll happen again.

Once again another opinionated and speculative post. Do you really presume to believe you know what I have and have not read? Just because I choose not to bloviate ad nauseam on the topic does not mean I have not read the full forum. Also, how can you with any credibility state beyond a shadow of a doubt "64,000 other members on here know good and well not to do", how can you possibly know what 64,000 other people know - did you poll them all? Perhaps you have some reading to do. Seems to me amongst the various threads on this and related topics there have been folks who have said they have participated in scenarios not totally un-like those herein discussed.
Back on my head.

[Lone Wolf]

keep it pithy

[pilgrimskywheel]

Once again another opinionated and speculative post. Do you really presume to believe you know what I have and have not read? Just because I choose not to bloviate ad nauseam on the topic does not mean I have not read the full forum. Also, how can you with any credibility state beyond a shadow of a doubt "64,000 other members on here know good and well not to do", how can you possibly know what 64,000 other people know - did you poll them all? Perhaps you have some reading to do. Seems to me amongst the various threads on this and related topics there have been folks who have said they have participated in scenarios not totally un-like those herein discussed.
Back on my head.

"Go into the back country unprepared and you die." Pilgrim.

I missed where the folks on this and other threads went out hiking unprepared in the face of common sense, the most basic hiking principles, and the most simple tenants of back country survival, and froze to death.

I was merely pointing out that the entire rest of the surviving hiking population at large in fact had the good sense to NOT be hiking in the Whites on the day in question - hence they are alive. Not rocket surgery. Don't like it? There's always reality TV.

[Alligator]

"Go into the back country unprepared and you die." Pilgrim.

I missed where the folks on this and other threads went out hiking unprepared in the face of common sense, the most basic hiking principles, and the most simple tenants of back country survival, and froze to death.

I was merely pointing out that the entire rest of the surviving hiking population at large in fact had the good sense to NOT be hiking in the Whites on the day in question - hence they are alive. Not rocket surgery. Don't like it? There's always reality TV.

You need to tone it down. He was not the sole person hiking that day in the Whites. The weather wasn't great but it wasn't freakishly unusual either.

[Furlough]

"Go into the back country unprepared and you die." Pilgrim.

I missed where the folks on this and other threads went out hiking unprepared in the face of common sense, the most basic hiking principles, and the most simple tenants of back country survival, and froze to death.

I was merely pointing out that the entire rest of the surviving hiking population at large in fact had the good sense to NOT be hiking in the Whites on the day in question - hence they are alive. Not rocket surgery. Don't like it? There's always reality TV.

Again - you can 100% factually state that the entire rest of the surviving hiking population at large in fact had the good sense to NOT be hiking in the Whites on the day in question. You know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the young man in question was the only hiker in the entirety of the Whites that day, or is there some other number of hikers in your speculative opinion who did not have good sense, hiked in the Whites that day and also perished - hence they too are dead? To that I say bovine excrement. Additionally, your first paragraph is again wildly speculative and opinionated and offers your take on the preparedness, understanding of basic hiking principals and back country survival as it applies to the young man in question. You honestly do not have any first hand knowledge of this individual and you broad brushstroke your opinion to attempt to paint facts. Also, I do not know anything about rocket surgery, although have read some on rocket science, am not afraid to admit to watching some reality TV, and likewise if you have an issue with a differing take on your opinion, perhaps you too may like reality TV as diversion. At any rate as my old First Sergeant use to say, it's a waste of the training day to argue with folks whose home training was different than yours. So, I'll leave you to your Don Quixote ways and hike on up the trail.

[Lone Wolf]

No kidding - that was a rhetorical example of a large population of folks who know what to do, and not to do, in order to safely share the White Mountains. How is it my fault folks want to advocate for doing something completely wrong, and we're supposed to what? Just accept it? Cut it out. "Stupidity should be painful." And it is.

are you the guy that got beat up in cosby, tn. ?

[pilgrimskywheel]

are you the guy that got beat up in cosby, tn. ?

Yup. Me and your old pal Curtis Owen got roaring drunk at Buddies Bar Room, which is in the back end of a trailer park, doing shots of Jameson and I stayed behind. He'd agreed to take me against Maria's misgivings, but I'd been working at the farm for six weeks and was tired of the erudite hiker set's neediness and inanities. I hit on the wrong girl - who's dad was the owner - and I got the crapped kicked out of me. It was a fine beating, and cleared my head completely. Stupidity should be painful - and it is.

[Lone Wolf]

fair enuf

[Dogwood]

Yup. Me and your old pal Curtis Owen got roaring drunk at Buddies Bar Room, which is in the back end of a trailer park, doing shots of Jameson and I stayed behind. He'd agreed to take me against Maria's misgivings, but I'd been working at the farm for six weeks and was tired of the erudite hiker set's neediness and inanities. I hit on the wrong girl... and I got the crapped kicked out of me. It was a fine beating, and cleared my head completely. Stupidity should be painful - and it is.

This is entertainment. LOL

I have this sneaky suspicion having the crap kicked out of you involved more than hitting on the wrong girl.

"I got the crapped kicked out of me. It was a fine beating, and cleared my head completely. Stupidity should be painful"

Might be about time for another fine beating?

Best story I read in awhile. LOL.

Funny thing is before reading this I thought you and me and a few others in a bar back in the day when I tipped it back we'd be at it. Too many stories like this even though hard earned lessons finally figured out lessons could be learned much easier.

Wish you well.

[pilgrimskywheel]

You need to tone it down. He was not the sole person hiking that day in the Whites. The weather wasn't great but it wasn't freakishly unusual either.

Sir, yes sir.

Correct. It is unfair to assume he was the only hiker hiking in the Whites that day. He is, as a point of fact, the only one who died of exposure there however. And, while not the worst weather on record - it was raining. I apologize if I was over-emphatic in attempting to demonstrate my position - which I've made clear.

While it is unfair to somehow blame this poor feller too strenuously for this tragedy, I find it equally unfair - and further perhaps dangerous - to neutralize his decisions as just a regular, and somehow unavoidable - even romantic - aspect of regular hiking.

More and more, younger and more varied folks from all walks of life are coming out to hike. The trend to leave behind critical equipment in favor of dropping weight, combined with ever greater risk taking is having tragic consequences. These consequences affect us all. There is a recent history, and a growing trend, of over-reactionary regulation coupled with permits, registration, quotas, and fees imposed on hikers as a result of an exponential hiker population explosion, coupled with their misbehavior and its consequences on the AT, and elsewhere.

If hikers as a community cannot police themselves in this regard, the solitude and freedoms we enjoy in the back country will be lost to the imposition of regulatory oversight "for our own good" - what ATC Director Andrew "Digger" Downs has referred to fearfully as a system run by "A benevolent dictator."

Thank you, P

[ScareBear]

This is entertainment. LOL

I have this sneaky suspicion having the crap kicked out of you involved more than hitting on the wrong girl.

"I got the crapped kicked out of me. It was a fine beating, and cleared my head completely. Stupidity should be painful"

Might be about time for another fine beating?

Best story I read in awhile. LOL.

Funny thing is before reading this I thought you and me and a few others in a bar back in the day when I tipped it back we'd be at it. Too many stories like this even though hard earned lessons finally figured out lessons could be learned much easier.

Wish you well.

Well. At least he admitted to it. I'm just wondering how drunk a former gung-ho "paratrooper" had to be before some trailer park gal's father got the better of him and gave him the asswhooping of a life! I'm picturing it......sorry....I can't.....not the drunkenness...that I can see...not the obnoxious drunkenness that would make some girl's father WANT to beat him senseless....that I can see....what I can't see is how some former tough guy "paratrooper" got his clock cleaned by some gal's father, because there aint enough booze in that trailer park for that kinda drunk! Well, unless he was an Air Force parachutist....LMAO!!!!! OMG.....LMAO!!!!

Thank you for the funniest thing I have ever read on WB!

Yes, YOU DO NEED HIKING POLES FOR SAFETY!! DON'T FORGET THEM THE NEXT TIME YOU GO INTO A BAR!!! OMG!!! LOLOLOL!!!!

And here I was thinking there was no way he could be a real live legend...and POOF.....here it is!

[pilgrimskywheel]

Well. At least he admitted to it. I'm just wondering how drunk a former gung-ho "paratrooper" had to be before some trailer park gal's father got the better of him and gave him the asswhooping of a life! I'm picturing it......sorry....I can't.....not the drunkenness...that I can see...not the obnoxious drunkenness that would make some girl's father WANT to beat him senseless....that I can see....what I can't see is how some former tough guy "paratrooper" got his clock cleaned by some gal's father, because there aint enough booze in that trailer park for that kinda drunk! Well, unless he was an Air Force parachutist....LMAO!!!!! OMG.....LMAO!!!!

Thank you for the funniest thing I have ever read on WB!

Yes, YOU DO NEED HIKING POLES FOR SAFETY!! DON'T FORGET THEM THE NEXT TIME YOU GO INTO A BAR!!! OMG!!! LOLOLOL!!!!

And here I was thinking there was no way he could be a real live legend...and POOF.....here it is!

Well, if you knew anything about a fight sonny you'd know that sooner or later there's always someone tougher, or at least more sober than you. If you can't take a beating now and then, then you can't give one out now and then. And if you knew Old Curtis, may he rest in peace, or life at the Bear circa 2012, you'd probably have some idea how drunk a paratrooper has to be to get what he's got coming. Or, just Skip on down to Buddies and ask for Bill. I think you'd quickly discover you're not in the same league as those paratroopers from either branch you seem so comfy disrespecting from the safety of your Hobbit Hole. If it helps you get your jollies I'm not shy about admitting that I've been beat up the world over. Life ain't a movie kid - but I'm still the star in mine. I hope you take this INFORMATION and process it RESPONSIBLY. Enjoy the moment.

[pilgrimskywheel]

This is entertainment. LOL

I have this sneaky suspicion having the crap kicked out of you involved more than hitting on the wrong girl.

"I got the crapped kicked out of me. It was a fine beating, and cleared my head completely. Stupidity should be painful"

Might be about time for another fine beating?

Best story I read in awhile. LOL.

Funny thing is before reading this I thought you and me and a few others in a bar back in the day when I tipped it back we'd be at it. Too many stories like this even though hard earned lessons finally figured out lessons could be learned much easier.

Wish you well.

Yup. There was a little more to it. Like a Cape Cod Yankee with a Boston brogue trying to charm a southern belle in a trailer park bar room in Cocke Co. TN - the "moonshine capitol of the universe" while her daddy was right there. What could go wrong? Do the words: "Y'all ain't frum roun hea!" sound familiar? And yup, it may be high time I got some more comeuppance - but hey, like Marcus Aurelius said: "The universe is change!"

You don't really know someone until you fight em. Often, our disagreements are the fast track to understanding, compromise, and mutual respect.

I wish you well too! Thanks man, P

[Alligator]

Sir, yes sir.

Correct. It is unfair to assume he was the only hiker hiking in the Whites that day. He is, as a point of fact, the only one who died of exposure there however. And, while not the worst weather on record - it was raining. I apologize if I was over-emphatic in attempting to demonstrate my position - which I've made clear.

While it is unfair to somehow blame this poor feller too strenuously for this tragedy, I find it equally unfair - and further perhaps dangerous - to neutralize his decisions as just a regular, and somehow unavoidable - even romantic - aspect of regular hiking.

More and more, younger and more varied folks from all walks of life are coming out to hike. The trend to leave behind critical equipment in favor of dropping weight, combined with ever greater risk taking is having tragic consequences. These consequences affect us all. There is a recent history, and a growing trend, of over-reactionary regulation coupled with permits, registration, quotas, and fees imposed on hikers as a result of an exponential hiker population explosion, coupled with their misbehavior and its consequences on the AT, and elsewhere.

If hikers as a community cannot police themselves in this regard, the solitude and freedoms we enjoy in the back country will be lost to the imposition of regulatory oversight "for our own good" - what ATC Director Andrew "Digger" Downs has referred to fearfully as a system run by "A benevolent dictator."

Thank you, P

If you are concerned about over-reactionary policies perhaps in general it is best to not be over-reactionary as a policy.

As a general observation, hikers don't like to be policed at all, not by anyone, inside or outside the community. There's a hippy deep down inside each one of the lot, whether they want to admit it or not. Why did the hippy cross the road? Because someone told him not to. Even being reasonable can be difficult they're kind of ornery too. However, it helps to keep your arguments sensible, to give genuine information, and to provide options so they don't feel like they have to.

The trails are extremely empty in the winter in my experience, many hikers don't like hiking then. However, winter is one of the four seasons and they are missing out by skipping it. It's an in-appreciation of nature in my opinion, but folks are entitled to their own opinion. I do think you are taking something away from people if you scare them out of doing something worth experiencing. We haven't gotten enough information to really tell much of anything. No cell records, no gear list, no autopsy, and an incomplete record of his hiking experience and general fitness. That's not to gloss anything over or to romantacize the situation. I think waiting for the facts is a sounder way to provide advice, because I always consider safety when i provide hiking advice.

I think it would be irresponsible to hike into inclement weather you are not physically and mentally prepared for. A person should be capable of what they are attempting.

Be responsible to yourself, your self doesn't want to die, you could take your self to a bridge and then the two of you could make it quick if that's the case. But's it's not. You do have someone to be responsible for other than you, you've got your self. Check the weather, investigate possible hazards, bring a map, consider the terrain, understand your safety margin and the consequences of exceeding your margin.

[pilgrimskywheel]

If you are concerned about over-reactionary policies perhaps in general it is best to not be over-reactionary as a policy.

As a general observation, hikers don't like to be policed at all, not by anyone, inside or outside the community. There's a hippy deep down inside each one of the lot, whether they want to admit it or not. Why did the hippy cross the road? Because someone told him not to. Even being reasonable can be difficult they're kind of ornery too. However, it helps to keep your arguments sensible, to give genuine information, and to provide options so they don't feel like they have to.

The trails are extremely empty in the winter in my experience, many hikers don't like hiking then. However, winter is one of the four seasons and they are missing out by skipping it. It's an in-appreciation of nature in my opinion, but folks are entitled to their own opinion. I do think you are taking something away from people if you scare them out of doing something worth experiencing. We haven't gotten enough information to really tell much of anything. No cell records, no gear list, no autopsy, and an incomplete record of his hiking experience and general fitness. That's not to gloss anything over or to romantacize the situation. I think waiting for the facts is a sounder way to provide advice, because I always consider safety when i provide hiking advice.

I think it would be irresponsible to hike into inclement weather you are not physically and mentally prepared for. A person should be capable of what they are attempting.

Be responsible to yourself, your self doesn't want to die, you could take your self to a bridge and then the two of you could make it quick if that's the case. But's it's not. You do have someone to be responsible for other than you, you've got your self. Check the weather, investigate possible hazards, bring a map, consider the terrain, understand your safety margin and the consequences of exceeding your margin.

Yes. Thank you. Agreed.

I think that the next five years, like the last five, will be a defining and pivotal time for the big three trails. Especially the AT, but the PCT, and then the CDT in that order will follow suit. It's time to decide what we expect these places to be like when our kids kids discover them. Will they be truly wild like Muir talked about, or wild, safe, and profitable like some absentee bureaucrat might decide they aught to be?