Information vs. responsibility

[Engine]

You'd think Salt Lake City would be all about mountain rescue...but they aren't...look at the terrain surrounding SLC on 3 sides....So, the small population density argument has been blown to pieces. It is inexcusable for SLC not to have the correct tools to be used in the correct manner. Or, can you alibi SLC as well?
https://utahavalanchecenter.org/backcountry-emergencies

It boils down to priorities in the community. If the residents and leaders of SLC wanted a top notch mountain rescue team, they could certainly make it happen. Often teams of this nature are the result of a small passionately dedicated group educating the community regarding both the need as well as what benefits assembling such a team would provide. Once people have been sold on the need for a resource, they don't push back as hard when faced with the cost. As long as the cost/benefit can be demonstrated...

[egilbe]

It boils down to priorities in the community. If the residents and leaders of SLC wanted a top notch mountain rescue team, they could certainly make it happen. Often teams of this nature are the result of a small passionately dedicated group educating the community regarding both the need as well as what benefits assembling such a team would provide. Once people have been sold on the need for a resource, they don't push back as hard when faced with the cost. As long as the cost/benefit can be demonstrated...

Are you suggesting that the good people of NH don't want to spend the resources to rescue massholes who put themselves in that position?

[Engine]

Are you suggesting that the good people of NH don't want to spend the resources to rescue massholes who put themselves in that position?

Not at all. I honestly don't know enough about the SAR infrastructure in that area to have an educated opinion. I was simply attempting to outline the typical path toward the creation of a top notch community based rescue team.

I used to have a dog in this fight here in Florida. The large rural public safety agency I worked for had a very limited budget for it's size and we simply could not afford specialized teams. This occasionally put our firefighters and medics in a tough spot when they were forced to respond to incidents which stretched their abilities. The best I could hope for was a mutual aid response from a neighboring department which had greater resources, but often this simply wasn't an option.

Given my background as the safety officer and eventually the interim chief, I would cringe when I knew department members were going into harm's way with less than optimal preparation and equipment. I fought for money to solve these issues, but in the end the commissioners made decisions based on community support.

It's very difficult to convince a hard working taxpayer they should fund an expensive specialty team (hazmat, for example) for the 2-3 times a year it might be deployed.

I imagine the same thing applies in regard to SAR teams up in the Northeast.

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[MuddyWaters]

When i was a kid, the coasties would come rescue your dumb arse if your boat broke down or ran out of fuel offshore.

That ended a long time ago.

They dont respond now unless your in immediate peril.

Even if your taking on water....expect a commercial entity like seatow or boatus to respond if they are operating in service area. You will be charged accordingly. Which under maritime law, saving a vessel in peril entitles savior to substantial value of the vessel. Salvage. Maybe 50-75% of the value.

The CG will call them for you They will call for good samaritan assistance on 16 as well.

Privatization of rescue services...is nothing new.
Thats precisely what ambulance and air ambulance services are too

If theres a real need, it gets filled by private enterprise in a capitalistic society.

[Traveler]

It boils down to priorities in the community. If the residents and leaders of SLC wanted a top notch mountain rescue team, they could certainly make it happen. Often teams of this nature are the result of a small passionately dedicated group educating the community regarding both the need as well as what benefits assembling such a team would provide. Once people have been sold on the need for a resource, they don't push back as hard when faced with the cost. As long as the cost/benefit can be demonstrated...

A lot of SAR/R personnel are part of other organizations that maybe paid or volunteer like law/game enforcement, fire/EMS services, park services, guides, and people or groups with special talents/equipment. When assembled for this work they provide a fairly robust and professional operation and no full time employees are necessary in most areas. Given the relatively low need per person ratios, there are not many places where a cost/benefit analysis would demonstrate need as opposed to something like a paid fire/EMS operation in an urban area.

[rafe]

I know you've done all these things, and more.

Not quite, but I'll spare you the point-by-point refutation.

You've shown me the pictures.

Speaking of DOC, by the way... 27 years ago, almost exactly... spent New Years weekend at the DOC cabin up by the SkiWay. I did a solo trek part way up Smarts Mountain while my buddies entertained themselves with ice diving in the lake by the cabin. Alas, no photos.

My very first hike ever in the White Mountains, really the first big mountain I ever climbed, was from the DOC lodge up the "carriage road" to the top of Moosilauke. I thought that climb would never end. That would be... about forty years ago.

[4eyedbuzzard]

A lot of SAR/R personnel are part of other organizations that maybe paid or volunteer like law/game enforcement, fire/EMS services, park services, guides, and people or groups with special talents/equipment. When assembled for this work they provide a fairly robust and professional operation and no full time employees are necessary in most areas. Given the relatively low need per person ratios, there are not many places where a cost/benefit analysis would demonstrate need as opposed to something like a paid fire/EMS operation in an urban area.

^^^THIS. New Hampshire does a pretty damn good job pulling people off of mountains in every season, in every possible predicament and weather conditions, when required. If NH were to fund a full-time paid mountain rescue group, the people going out on rescues would likely be the same ones that do it now anyway, as they are the most qualified people around both from a technical and local knowledge basis. There aren't enough rescue events to justify maintaining a mountain rescue group on a full-time paid standby basis when you have pretty much the best people on call as volunteers anyway.

[Another Kevin]

Not quite, but I'll spare you the point-by-point refutation.



Speaking of DOC, by the way... 27 years ago, almost exactly... spent New Years weekend at the DOC cabin up by the SkiWay. I did a solo trek part way up Smarts Mountain while my buddies entertained themselves with ice diving in the lake by the cabin. Alas, no photos.

My very first hike ever in the White Mountains, really the first big mountain I ever climbed, was from the DOC lodge up the "carriage road" to the top of Moosilauke. I thought that climb would never end. That would be... about forty years ago.

Heh. Me, too. '73 it was, and rather than the Carriage Road, we went up Gorge Brook. Came back down the Carriage Road as far as the Snapper crossover. I was a New York City kid and had Absolutely No Clue what the White Mountains were like. (I still thought Harriman was tough.) My hiking buddy on that trip, his brother, and two of their best friends died about six weeks later when they flew their plane into Equinox Mountain.

[Another Kevin]

It boils down to priorities in the community. If the residents and leaders of SLC wanted a top notch mountain rescue team, they could certainly make it happen. Often teams of this nature are the result of a small passionately dedicated group educating the community regarding both the need as well as what benefits assembling such a team would provide. Once people have been sold on the need for a resource, they don't push back as hard when faced with the cost. As long as the cost/benefit can be demonstrated...

We live in a time when it seems to be an article of religion that every government service is too great a burden on the taxpayers. "I don't want one penny of our money going to (...)" wins votes, no matter how great a good the proposed service would achieve or how little it costs. If something that the government does benefits some individual disproportionately, the benefit to society at large gets overlooked. Ideas like "I don't have school-age kids, but I want good schools because I don't want to live in a society where all the voters are stupid," "I seldom drive, but I want good roads because my food travels over them," or "I want a functioning fire brigade, because a fire in Joe Uninsured's house can too easily get out of control and spread to mine," are painfully hard to sell.

I suspect that the average Joe and Jane on the street in SLC see mountain rescue as, "our taxes going to those rich playboys who go taking senseless risks." That idea ties into an earlier post where I suspected that a jury chosen from off the street in a city would see hiking as "reckless" if the government sued a victim for rescue costs. All those people vote.

[Alligator]

Folks, you are getting into that broader argument of political priorities which is a never ending can of worms because it can be spun forever. Time to move away from the why for emergency service spending possibly being insufficient. Thanks. I'm having to clean up a lot political posts. Repeat offenders are going to be faced with privilege loses soon.

[Engine]

Folks, you are getting into that broader argument of political priorities which is a never ending can of worms because it can be spun forever. Time to move away from the why for emergency service spending possibly being insufficient. Thanks. I'm having to clean up a lot political posts. Repeat offenders are going to be faced with privilege loses soon.

Frankly, the constant threats of penalizing someone for rationally expressing sound reasoning in a non-confrontational manner are getting tedious. There may have been some contentious posts earlier in the thread related to politics which I missed, but nothing in the last dozen or so posts was related to "political priorities". The last couple of pages have dealt with community priorities and the general feeling of the populace toward spending on specific resources. If I've crossed a line here, I apologize, but in the event I have it was not a clearly defined line...

[rafe]

Extremely timely and apropos:

http://indepthnh.org/2017/01/06/resc...-to-be-billed/

[MuddyWaters]

Extremely timely and apropos:

http://indepthnh.org/2017/01/06/resc...-to-be-billed/

Cheap.

Good for him he only made it 2.6 mi.

[Alligator]

Frankly, the constant threats of penalizing someone for rationally expressing sound reasoning in a non-confrontational manner are getting tedious. There may have been some contentious posts earlier in the thread related to politics which I missed, but nothing in the last dozen or so posts was related to "political priorities". The last couple of pages have dealt with community priorities and the general feeling of the populace toward spending on specific resources. If I've crossed a line here, I apologize, but in the event I have it was not a clearly defined line...

I've pulled a number of posts elsewhere and in this thread. You think people can act respectfully about but they don't. It's an illusion you get because things get cleaned up. I've also got a couple of people bouncing between threads looking to start crap with one another.

How a community spends on emergency services is a political issue. Even if it is only community volunteers someone starts with, it's not good the government needs to step in and pay for it. Then it starts to go downhill.

Now in the future, don't keep calling the mods out about moderation actions. It ties up the thread. Use PM.

[Engine]

I've pulled a number of posts elsewhere and in this thread. You think people can act respectfully about but they don't. It's an illusion you get because things get cleaned up. I've also got a couple of people bouncing between threads looking to start crap with one another.

How a community spends on emergency services is a political issue. Even if it is only community volunteers someone starts with, it's not good the government needs to step in and pay for it. Then it starts to go downhill.

Now in the future, don't keep calling the mods out about moderation actions. It ties up the thread. Use PM.

Understood, thanks for the thoughtful response.

[pilgrimskywheel]

Extremely timely and apropos:

http://indepthnh.org/2017/01/06/resc...-to-be-billed/

Okay, wow. Thanks for this very timely and apropos information. It is indeed an interesting fact that a hiker can in fact be held RESPONSIBLE for ignoring INFORMATION and be billed. I'm not deliberately trying to ask an indelicate question, but I seriously want to know: since these services do cost money, and incur inherent risks, who is liable for billing when a rescue becomes a recovery? For example: in the event I were to be killed in such a situation is my estate, insurance provider, or my surviving heirs financially responsible? If so, that means when I do go out alone - as I do - I am assuming a FAR greater risk then I was aware. In effect, I'd be leaving behind the cost of almost two funerals on top of everything else!

Seriously good to consider.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Cheap.

Good for him he only made it 2.6 mi.

So, he made it to the Liberty Springs tentsite from Lafayette Campground down in the notch on I-93. Kind of humorous, but maybe he holed up in the privy while awaiting rescue? It would be better than being exposed to the elements. Glad that he is okay though.

[rafe]

Cheap.

Good for him he only made it 2.6 mi.

Good god, if he only made it to Liberty Springs campsite before calling for rescue, he had absolutely no business attempting a 35 mile hike. He got off cheap.

[imscotty]

Good god, if he only made it to Liberty Springs campsite before calling for rescue, he had absolutely no business attempting a 35 mile hike. He got off cheap.

Yes, I was rather stunned too. And it does not sound like he was injured or in serious trouble, I guess he thought he could call up the concierge service to be helped out. He did not know how to set up his tent? Don't people actually try that out in their back yard before they attempt Winter in the Whites? I get that he was getting cold and worried, but he was 'well equipped' and uninjured. He could not walk 2.6 miles downhill to save himself?

I guess this is the person the NH billing rules were made for. He is lucky it was a cheap 'rescue.'

[MuddyWaters]

Since SAR usually makes you walk out with them if uninjured, not sure what some hope to gain. Maybe companionship. Chances are they get scared and freak out. They dont want to hike out in dark alone, and dont want to stay

Happened to a scout troop a couple yrs ago.