Information vs. responsibility

[rafe]

If you are concerned about over-reactionary policies perhaps in general it is best to not be over-reactionary as a policy.

Hear, hear. Frankly, given the popularity of hiking and backpacking, and some of its inherent dangers, it seems to me the relative number of deaths is pretty low. But I have no way of quantifying that or comparing it to other active outdoor recreations.

The trails are extremely empty in the winter in my experience, many hikers don't like hiking then. However, winter is one of the four seasons and they are missing out by skipping it.

The trails are not as empty as you might think. Long distance hiking is rare, but there could well be a few AT southbounders still finishing up. Short section hikes are still happening -- as evidenced over on Blissfull's FB page, or even here on Whiteblaze, eg. Texaco's recent hike of the southern LT.

The famous James Hare AT anthology contains journals of at least one or two wintertime thru-hikes. The Barefoot Sisters Southbound is another. Their most exciting wintertime moments were down in southern Virginia. Early NOBO hikers often encounter snow, eg., Chris Gallaway's film Long Start To The Journey or even Bryson's A Walk In The Woods.

Winter peakbagging is a big thing up in the White Mountains, and has been since forever. This I know from personal experience (see links below.) The popular website ViewsFromTheTop is a good place to follow the White Mountain hiking scene, year round.

http://terrapinphoto.com/wp/gallerie...ulie-11-20-14/

http://terrapinphoto.com/wp/gallerie...15-with-julie/

http://terrapinphoto.com/wp/gallerie...kbagging-more/

http://terrapinphoto.com/wp/gallerie...mtns-way-back/

[Traillium]

Yes. Thank you. Agreed.

I think that the next five years, like the last five, will be a defining and pivotal time for the big three trails. Especially the AT, but the PCT, and then the CDT in that order will follow suit. It's time to decide what we expect these places to be like when our kids kids discover them. Will they be truly wild like Muir talked about, or wild, safe, and profitable like some absentee bureaucrat might decide they aught to be?

Or even in existence — if the Trump card gets played? …

I should probably rephrase that. In what form will these and other 'wilderness' trails and areas be if restrictions are opened and if rights on public lands are sold off to non-conservation-minded 'conservatives'?

(…ducks-&-runs…)

[pilgrimskywheel]

If you are concerned about over-reactionary policies perhaps in general it is best to not be over-reactionary as a policy.

As a general observation, hikers don't like to be policed at all, not by anyone, inside or outside the community.

1. True, however - we're having a dialogue about it now aren't we?

2. True, and that's my point. I don't like to policed at all as I am an at times onerous libertine hiking hippie. (1973) Look at the dominoes falling: GSMNP fees for thru-hikers, followed by registration and quotas at Baxter - Jensen Bissell the park director has even suggested closing the park to thru-hikers all together. No more Katahdin! Then there are the closures of numerous free hostels overwhelmed by the rising numbers of hikers coupled with their wild ways. For example: The Jailhouse in Palmerton - just to name one.

The number of folks attempting a thru-hike has risen, and continues to rise, by something like 15% each year. Acting as though everything will be the same while everything is changing is no way to shift the coming responses in a way that is amenable to us as hikers. Indeed, this wide spread "business as usual" approach is the way to ensure that reactionary policies will be passed down to us - likely from an entity from outside the so-called "hiking community" by a party like Andrew "Digger" Downs "benevolent dictator".

Before we get any further someone is going to ask: "Why is a notorious wild man concerned with logical trail reforms?" I'd like to point out here that the most successful treatment program for the recovery of millions of addicted alcoholics in the history of man wasn't started by Mother Theresa, but by a raging alcoholic and notorious wild man - Bill Wilson. Alcoholic Anonymous (and no, I'm not a member) is a successful reformation program, a phenomenon really, because it was engineered by men and women on the inside of the problem. They understood how the dysfunction worked intimately, and so then therefore how it could be logically resolved WITHOUT outside intervention, but rather with logical, compassionate, empathetic, experienced, and honest communication from within. Just talking. At the time the state was locking these afflicted into sanitariums, strapping them to gurneys, drugs, shock treatment, and so on. I hope you are getting the analogy.

[One Half]

Yup - great pics TW! I'm guessing the BSA has never required a pre-hike reading of Jack London's To Build A Fire?

Here's a hot one - speaking of felonies! When I got to a totally empty shelter somewhere below Mountain X-ings back in Jan. 2012. I had timed it just right. The sun went down and after getting settled into the shelter I lit a humongous fire. I was enjoying a hot cocoa and life in general as just then here come ALL of troop 46 up the trail. I heard them first, and it sounded like seagulls who's flock has just discovered a dead dolphin had washed ashore. There was more than 20 of these cats, 4 dads, 2 moms, and 3 or 4 Eagles who looked to be of high school age. Of course, they all dog piled up into the shelter. I moved down and obliged as they over filled it, and constructed a tent city of an impressive number. They built their own fire, and set up a dinner tent off the corner of the shelter completely taking over the picnic table. As things began to settle down to a dull roar - I observed all this a little disconcertedly from the shelter now teeming with kids - the dad's, with the Eagles in tow approached me. I thought: "Nice I'm going to be invited to second supper for my troubles!" Wrongo. The mothers had put them up to kicking me out of the shelter as they did not want strangers who had not undergone a thorough back ground check sleeping in close proximity to the troop and would I be so kind as to pack up and camp someplace down the trail. This is the part in the show where I start laughing, and then deliver my most politic: "Hell no I won't go speech." Which consists of: "Hell no!" Upon discovering I was a vet on an early start thru-hike who had never been convicted of a felony in his life, they had me give a short speech about the Army and long distance hiking to the troopers. All, in all - fart jokes aside - we had a hell of a night! I had spent the last of my cash short of about 6 bucks on chocolate bars back at the lodge, and cleverly parlayed this into an astonishing good trade for all the Mountain House meals I could carry. At dawn, after hearty handshakes and high fives, I watched bemused as troop 46 lumbered off grumbling, cold, soggy, and overloaded into the thick winter fog - miserable and headed home a day early! The End

Where the heck do troop leaders get the notion that they have the right to ask/expect others to camp elsewhere because THEY showed up?! ***?

[One Half]

Slovenia needs more money, trust me...

That said, perhaps NH folks might consider an income tax. It's not like NH is a retirement haven like FL...but...unlikely. Its that "Live Free or Die" thing, I guess...

Out west, its not like the mountain rescue services are all that much better. Even in a place like SLC.

Hush your mouth!

[One Half]

You don't have a God given, or American right of your freedoms, as it turns out, to march up into the tops of the White Mountains in a mid-winter storm and predictably die - Eagle Scout or not. To do so in my opinion is the height of actual arrogance combined with a lethal hubris. Why? Because it ruins it for everyone else that these places are set aside for the enjoyment of for starters. The rescuers, your family, the community, and everyone who survives and is touched by your loss.

.

Yes we do! Except that I believe that each person should be held responsible for their rescue or attempted rescue so either the person/estate gets billed or people should have insurance. But not mandated insurance. Cause that's not very free! If I needed rescuing I would fully expect a bill or for my estate to be billed if I died. And if I was rescued, I would gladly pay that bill even if it took me many years to do it. But if I had an option to buy a policy, priced based on my experience and the hike I was planning, I would do that in a HEART BEAT when I felt it necessary. And deal with the consequences if I chose poorly.

[rafe]

Limited access at Baxter has been in place since the park's inception. Same for the shelters at GSMNP, although the fees are new.

This thread was intended to address safety in the wilderness, not hostel shutdowns or shelter fees. Start your own thread if that's your peeve.

[rafe]

But if I had an option to buy a policy, priced based on my experience and the hike I was planning, I would do that in a HEART BEAT when I felt it necessary. And deal with the consequences if I chose poorly.

That's exactly how the NH "HikeSafe" program works, except that it's a fixed $25 per year fee, and no, you don't get a discount based on "experience."

[pilgrimskywheel]

Limited access at Baxter has been in place since the park's inception. Same for the shelters at GSMNP, although the fees are new.

This thread was intended to address safety in the wilderness, not hostel shutdowns or shelter fees. Start your own thread if that's your peeve.

I think you missed the connection. There's a lot of material to cover - the quiz is after lunch. Thanks for the tip. I get you don't get it. Study hard and stay in school.

[pilgrimskywheel]

Yes we do! Except that I believe that each person should be held responsible for their rescue or attempted rescue so either the person/estate gets billed or people should have insurance. But not mandated insurance. Cause that's not very free! If I needed rescuing I would fully expect a bill or for my estate to be billed if I died. And if I was rescued, I would gladly pay that bill even if it took me many years to do it. But if I had an option to buy a policy, priced based on my experience and the hike I was planning, I would do that in a HEART BEAT when I felt it necessary. And deal with the consequences if I chose poorly.

Asked and answered like 48 hrs. ago.20170101_112853.jpg No you don't.

[One Half]

That's exactly how the NH "HikeSafe" program works, except that it's a fixed $25 per year fee, and no, you don't get a discount based on "experience."

well at that price that's a no brainer. however, as someone who has hiked there for years and lived there for 2, why have I never heard of this insurance? And certainly one would think that it makes sense to charge more to people hiking different areas or times of year where the costs of rescue would go up.

[One Half]

Asked and answered like 48 hrs. ago.20170101_112853.jpg No you don't.

You seem to often think that a warning sign makes something a law and that people don't have the right to disregard it. I hope you didn't remove the tag from your mattress! I CAN disregard all these warnings. It is my right. But as I said before, I should be the one held responsible for the consequences of my actions.

[Bronk]

I'll take this one... Probably irresponsible, but that does not mean I think it should never be done.

John Muir in the height of a storm was said to have climbed to the top of a tall Douglas Fir to ride the wind and experience the fury of nature. Who am I to tell Muir that he should not do such a thing? He might have ended up dead that day, but it was his risk to take, and I suppose I am glad he did it. It seems to have inspired him, whose words and deeds have inspired so many others.

I went outside in a hurricane and stood in the middle of a parking lot hanging onto a light pole so I could feel the force of the wind and rain. It was an awesome experience.

[pilgrimskywheel]

Where the heck do troop leaders get the notion that they have the right to ask/expect others to camp elsewhere because THEY showed up?! ***?

Even funnier story! Four Pines Hostel - Joe Mitchell's place in the fall of 2014. (Seriously, one of if not the best hostels out there - Standing Bear, Uncle Johnnie's, 4 Pines) Joe is good enough to let a Girl Scout Troop use the place for free of charge because he's a righteous dude. Me and my girl where there and the only 2 hikers around doing a SOBO section. The mother hen wouldn't let anybody who hadn't had a background check within 50 feet of the troop and she'd run you off if you got in range. Me and Rollergirl stayed up the barn. We were up there being safe when the troop and Mary Poppins come cruisin on in - I run them off as anybody who has had a thorough back ground check can't be within 100 feet of me! Everyone actually got along well and we all kinda took it in stride after that little ice breaker.

[pilgrimskywheel]

"Say something intelligent related to hiking, or the topic of this thread I triple dog dare you."

Don't forget your hiking poles when you go into a bar?

Well, at least it's related to hiking.

[pilgrimskywheel]

I went outside in a hurricane and stood in the middle of a parking lot hanging onto a light pole so I could feel the force of the wind and rain. It was an awesome experience.

Yeah, I'm going out to fly a kite in a thunder storm to rediscover electricity. If it's good enough for Ben Franklin it's good enough for aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Dogwood]

I don't have that attitude or stereotyping about anyone from the south or with a drawl. And, I spent most of my formative younger yrs in NJ. Albeit I'm somewhat of a NJ bush person/blue collar working class/dirt digger that gained formal education at universities from the Pine Barrens and along the ocean/beach bum. Kinda funny when southerns try placing my accent which can be strong even though I haven't lived in NJ FT for more than 10 yrs.

When I show southerners an inch of respect they often return a mile back. They don't need for me to impose. Empowering relationships are built from a good place in the heart and mind. I try to access that place and walk in it. Traveling and backpacking nationally and internationally has taught me to NOT impose myself on others or prejudge anyone. If I am prejudging I know I'm not open enough and walking in love and understanding. I'm behaving out of my ego and pride.

[MuddyWaters]

When I show southerners an inch of respect they often return a mile back. They don't need for me to impose. Empowering relationships are built from a good place in the heart and mind. I try to access that place and walk in it. Traveling and backpacking nationally and internationally has taught me to NOT impose myself on others or prejudge anyone. If I am prejudging I know I'm not open enough and walking in love and understanding. I'm behaving out of my ego and pride.

Good thing, cause most dont have a high opinion of northerners by default. Pendulum swings both ways. Biggest thing is people are unfriendly and in a hurry, and like to use car horns to show it.

My wifes family is from NJ, fortunately she got out at 14 before she was permanently damaged. she was able to be rehabilitated....mostly.

[rickb]

When you offer advice online, do you consider the implications of your advice, with regard to safety?

To expand that just a bit, I wonder if some of the opinions we share regarding those who get in over their heads, or criticism of the "clueless" folk who call for help on their cell phones rather than committing to self-rescue, might contribute to a culture where some might not reach out for help as soon as they should.

I am am not suggesting that played any role in this case, but I do wonder why some of the people who perish in these kinds of tragedies never even activate their rescue beacons.

[Dogwood]

The entitled imposing highly stressed hectic impatient ignorant obnoxious over demanding self absorbed jerk speed addict attitude doesn't go over well in most places. Add intoxicants or selfish behavioral norms, that can entail the same consequences as illicit drug use or addictions in themselves, and the situation is more problematic.

Adapting, flexibility, and an awareness of others by walking in love, joy, trust, generosity, kindness, and wisdom can be how we aim to always conscientiously walk.

Sorry for the latest thread drift.