Information vs. responsibility

[rafe]

There are a couple of threads here about a recent hiking tragedy in the White Mountains. The victim was young, hiking alone, and a former Eagle Scout. I wonder if he had hiking buddies, or was on any hiking blogs, or sought advice from other hikers, or checked the weather reports.

In the Information Age, is it a responsibility to seek and consider publicly-available information?

Is it irresponsible not to consult books, journals, blogs, or other publicly-available opinions, anecdotes, or data?

Is it irresponsible to embark on a day hike when severe weather is forecast for that day?

When you offer advice online, do you consider the implications of your advice, with regard to safety?

[Ktaadn]

A young individual (assuming they have no children) has none of the responsibility that you mention in my opinion.

I do have a wife and a child so yes, I am responsible for returning home safely to provide for them. I don't have the luxury of being reckless with my life.

[JohnHuth]

Rafe -

A couple of thoughts - some that have been articulated many times, some not so much.

1.) Being an Eagle Scout doesn't necessarily make a person skilled in the outdoors. I was teaching orienteering to my son's scout troop some years back. I showed them how to do the first leg on the course, and then handed the map and compass to an Eagle Scout to do the next leg. He confessed that he didn't know how to read a compass. I said "OK, I can do the compass work, you just use the map". He said he didn't know how to read maps. I handed the map and compass to my son, who was quite competent in both, but he never became an Eagle Scout. The difference - some kids just try to check off the boxes and squeeze through, some really want to acquire the skills. That's probably true in the larger domain of life, but thought I'd mention it.

2.) In terms of competence and decision making, there is the common ethical argument that you may be putting others (SAR volunteers) in harms way by doing something rash. The footage of the Androscoggin Valley SAR team search for Kate Matrosova is a case in point. This suggests that it *is* an ethical consideration to seek out information on conditions, etc.

2.a) Subnote on that is the thought that a rescue beacon (SPOT or IPRB) can save you in a bad situation, and people take more risks as a result. The problem, clearly, is how long it takes to get to a location - and if you hit the SPOT panic button, probably things have already gone wrong.

3.) Definitely check the weather forecast - but also become adept at reading the weather on your own. This is particularly true in the summer months.

4.) Advice online....oh my! I do think about the implications. Typically it is "I do this..." and then rationale. In the case of the thread of the young man who just perished, I saw a "Oh, I pack a full kit" versus "I pack a scaled down set" - somewhat conflicting advice. I have an XC skiing trip up in Northern Maine coming up and have to think about this - probably will have enough to survive a night out, but not so much as to slow me down. At that point, people have to make some decisions - and the decisions do depend on weather conditions a lot.

The call on 'responsibility' is something like this "if you don't care about your own life, care about the lives of your loved ones, or people who may come searching"

On a final note, there is an imponderable "will to live" - which I believe the Coast Guard actually quantifies in their SAR techniques. They've added questions to EPRB forms about "are you married?" "do you have children?" all puzzling at first, but probably gives some hints about the 'will to live' for searchers.

[imscotty]

Is it irresponsible to embark on a day hike when severe weather is forecast for that day?

I'll take this one... Probably irresponsible, but that does not mean I think it should never be done.

John Muir in the height of a storm was said to have climbed to the top of a tall Douglas Fir to ride the wind and experience the fury of nature. Who am I to tell Muir that he should not do such a thing? He might have ended up dead that day, but it was his risk to take, and I suppose I am glad he did it. It seems to have inspired him, whose words and deeds have inspired so many others.

To the Bonds incident.... the weather was severe, but not unusual for Winter in the Whites. I am sure there were other hikers above tree line that day. This hiker took risks that I would not advise anyone take (specifically going that deep into the wilderness unprepared to spend the night). We should all do our best to inform ourselves and others about the risks and safe practices. I have no wish to disparage anyone who takes risks and fails. Yes, I would call the hike plan irresponsible, but I argue part of freedom is that people should be free to be irresponsible and take personal risks.

[Leo L.]

A young individual (assuming they have no children) has none of the responsibility that you mention in my opinion...

As long as you won't break down and pull out the phone to call for help in case of an emergency, but stand (or lay down) and dy like a man - its your decision.
As soon as there is a chance that anybody else gets involved (and that might be another hiker finding you by pure luck half-dead who will take a hell of an effort to save you), you should act responsible.

@rafe:
It widely depends on what information is available, if any.
If you have access to weather forecast it would be plein stupid to not use it.
There might be situations where you don't have access - then you need to use your old skills of "weather-feeling".
Same is true for route finding.
Anyway, the situation that we have Internet access in almost all places anytime is pretty new, a few years at most.
Basically, Yes, one is obliged to act responsible and get all information available.

Your last question, while I think that WB is an exceptional place, the Internet in common is full of false or half-true information and one should not trust any so-called fact picked up randomly.

[johnspenn]

A young individual (assuming they have no children) has none of the responsibility that you mention in my opinion.

IMO the individual has a responsibility to his parents, brothers and/or sisters, friends, etc. Most people don't live in a vacuum, but have people around them who love them. They are responsible to those people.

[nsherry61]

. . . To the Bonds incident.... the weather was severe, but not unusual for Winter in the Whites. I am sure there were other hikers above tree line that day. This hiker took risks that I would not advise anyone take (specifically going that deep into the wilderness unprepared to spend the night). . . Yes, I would call the hike plan irresponsible, but I argue part of freedom is that people should be free to be irresponsible and take personal risks.

Thanks for a thoughtful and appreciative response.

That being said, sure the weather sucked, but it wasn't inherently irresponsible to go out in it with appropriate gear and knowledge, which apparently the hiker had in this instance. If I were in physically good enough shape to do that 22 miles, I would not hesitate for a minute to do that same hike. Yeah, it might be cold and miserable, but that is part of the challenge, learning to live in and take joy out of the misery that mother nature is throwing at us.

In the end, the hiker made a bad choice, apparently not to put on warmer cloths sooner. That's all. No lack of appropriate gear. No series of bad decisions or mistakes. No perfect storm of errors and mishaps (that we know of), just one bad choice at one key point to not take the time to get warm before it was too late to manage the cold. One lethal error in judgement, that if he'd grown up on the Pacific NW, he probably wouldn't have made (you know, endless 35*F drizzle all winter long).

There is not evidence of a lack of knowledge, not a lack of preparation, not any irresponsible choices leading up to his mistake until the one he made, or didn't make, that killed him. Sure, you can suggest that appropriate preparation would have been spending time in miserable windy wet conditions closer to home until you have that art perfected, but, maybe he did. He just made one bad decision. It's sad, but, in the end, hopefully many of us can learn some greater fear of above freezing hypothermia.

[Greenlight]

According to several articles I browsed, the young man had the knowledge, experience, and health to return home alive and well. He knew the terrain, the weather, his abilities...everything it would seem. I believe he was an EMT, had been a backcountry guide.

It would appear that he was the victim of the wet snow that fell, and the onset of hypothermia was so quick that he had little time to react. By the time he took life-saving action, his internal temp had already dropped to the point where he wasn't thinking clearly. He tried to get another layer on, but rescuers found he had put it on upside down. Sad.

Was he at fault? Yes, even the most experienced with the best gear and knowledge can still get into situations that go South in a matter of seconds.

Can we learn a (sad) lesson from it? Fortunately, yes. And may his name and situation be spoken of when addressing this very phenomenon. Don't second guess your training. Keep eating. Drink the water now. Get warm now. Push the help button.

This wasn't a newbie. He was part of the elite, and he still died.

There are a couple of threads here about a recent hiking tragedy in the White Mountains. The victim was young, hiking alone, and a former Eagle Scout. I wonder if he had hiking buddies, or was on any hiking blogs, or sought advice from other hikers, or checked the weather reports.

In the Information Age, is it a responsibility to seek and consider publicly-available information?

Is it irresponsible not to consult books, journals, blogs, or other publicly-available opinions, anecdotes, or data?

Is it irresponsible to embark on a day hike when severe weather is forecast for that day?

When you offer advice online, do you consider the implications of your advice, with regard to safety?

[JohnHuth]

This kind of discussion also reminds me of a quote:

Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.
(Rita Mae Brown)

Yes, I represent that remark.

[pilgrimskywheel]

There are a couple of threads here about a recent hiking tragedy in the White Mountains. The victim was young, hiking alone, and a former Eagle Scout. I wonder if he had hiking buddies, or was on any hiking blogs, or sought advice from other hikers, or checked the weather reports.

In the Information Age, is it a responsibility to seek and consider publicly-available information?

Is it irresponsible not to consult books, journals, blogs, or other publicly-available opinions, anecdotes, or data?

Is it irresponsible to embark on a day hike when severe weather is forecast for that day?

When you offer advice online, do you consider the implications of your advice, with regard to safety?

1. Yes, 2. Yes, 3. Yes, 4. Yes

20170101_112853.jpg I'm confused as to how I'm expected to pack out my butt wipes, however, leaving my 260 lb. corpse behind for someone else to find, pack out, and grieve over is somehow acceptable because I was on an "epic adventure", or Muir once climbed a tree in a storm, or Abbey would have found it a "noble death". As an "experienced" Eagle Scout with "extensive wilderness training" in the "Yukon" this cat should have not only been aware that he was responsible for the information on this trail head sign (as I was), but that he was violating all the basic tenants of first day wilderness survival classes. I'm not going to enumerate them now, but he basically did everything everybody knows not to do, and what happened is why not to do them. There's been a lot of talk about training, experience, and gear - clearly there wasn't enough.

[rafe]

I wonder: if he'd discussed his proposed hike on a relevant blog, eg. VFTT, sought out advice or opinions... or did he just wing it?

Would anyone on VFTT have said, maybe this is a bit ambitious? Would he have listened?

Young people are typically headstrong and not always receptive to advice, so who knows.... ?

[rafe]

If you have access to weather forecast it would be plein stupid to not use it.

A different case -- but I recall well the controversy over Kate Mostrova's death on Mt. Madison. All the weather reports for that weekend had warned of extreme weather throughout New England. And yet she still went up the mountain.

[Engine]

A young individual (assuming they have no children) has none of the responsibility that you mention in my opinion.

I do have a wife and a child so yes, I am responsible for returning home safely to provide for them. I don't have the luxury of being reckless with my life.

Don't we have a responsibility to do what we can to not endanger the lives rescuers unecessarily?

[pilgrimskywheel]

Don't we have a responsibility to do what we can to not endanger the lives rescuers unecessarily?

+1 Thank you. Or, traumatize them. They have find you dead. If I'm reading this correctly, they had to spend the night up there with his body in order to survive themselves. Can you say: counseling?

[trailmercury]

+1 Thank you. Or, traumatize them. They have find you dead. If I'm reading this correctly, they had to spend the night up there with his body in order to survive themselves. Can you say: counseling?

Not only counseling but a lot of PTSD patients take medication as well.

[CELTIC BUCK]

As a Scout of the 1960's and still involved to a limited extent today may I make an observation. Eagle Scouts today are not required to have the same level of experience nor skill as in the past say 1910 thru 1970. Where prior less than 1% of Scouts made Eagle now its closing on 3%.Are the youth better NO the skills & required merit badges have been dumbed down & youth members are allowed to do group projects I've seen cooking merit badge as an example done all inside with MOM helping. instead of all outdoor.My point is unfortunately an Eagle Scout does not mean what it once did.Would tougher rules and skills saved this young Man we will never know but some where decision making & learning failed to connect. But we can all learn all the days of our lives & continue to pass that knowledge on to others.

[peakbagger]

A different case -- but I recall well the controversy over Kate Mostrova's death on Mt. Madison. All the weather reports for that weekend had warned of extreme weather throughout New England. And yet she still went up the mountain.

I posted on VFTT a few days before Kate's demise that is was highly likely that someone would get seriously hurt or die that upcoming holiday week and it predicted it would be someone from outside the area who was going to drive up and decide to hike hoping the conditions would improve. Sadly, Kate fulfilled my prediction.

Unfortunately there is no summit specific long range forecasts for the whites. The Obs has their higher summits forecast which is generally quite good but its only 2 days out at best. Most folks plan their trips early in the week and they rely on forecasts for the region that are oriented to communities around the whites. They weather down in the valleys can be significantly different than the summits. Last week there were three days where the forecast was partly sunny for my town, just north of Mt Washington (the summit is a local phone call), all three days it snowed in the AM and the sun never came out. 10 miles north it was blue sky. The folks looking for a good forecast have already made their plans and want the forecast to confirm it. Frequently once the reservations are made, they are coming to the area, they may look at the Obs higher summits forecast but many elect to start the hike assuming they will have the brains to turn around before the weather gets bad.

[imscotty]

Don't we have a responsibility to do what we can to not endanger the lives rescuers unecessarily?

The thing is all activity involves a certain degree of risk. I suppose the question is, when does that risk become unacceptable? The answer to that is a 'value' judgement and we will each have our own opinions as to where that line lies.

Some people will believe that ANY risk is 'unnecessary'. Perhaps people should NEVER enter the woods, that should keep the SAR folks safe. I don't think there is anyone on WB that would support this idea, but I have talked to enough 'regular' folks to say that some people believe this, at least for themselves.

Some people have had such complete disregard for there own safety and others that their actions are justly condemned.

But in between there are many shades of gray. My line personally may lie on the conservative side, but it would be egotistical of me to believe that my 'risk tolerance' should be everyone else's risk tolerance.

Likewise, the SAR folks chose to volunteer or work in a profession that puts their own lives at risk. I thank them for that, they deserve our appreciation. I am sure they argue among themselves where that line should be drawn between acceptable and unacceptable risk. If they believed in zero risk tolerance, they probably would be in a different profession. Where should the acceptable risk line be drawn? Well I am arguing more towards the side of freedom.

[pilgrimskywheel]

The thing is all activity involves a certain degree of risk. I suppose the question is, when does that risk become unacceptable? The answer to that is a 'value' judgement and we will each have our own opinions as to where that line lies.

Some people will believe that ANY risk is 'unnecessary'. Perhaps people should NEVER enter the woods, that should keep the SAR folks safe. I don't think there is anyone on WB that would support this idea, but I have talked to enough 'regular' folks to say that some people believe this, at least for themselves.

Some people have had such complete disregard for there own safety and others, there actions are justly condemned.

But in between there are many shades of gray. My line may lie on the conservative side, but it would be egotistical to believe that my 'risk tolerance' should be everyone else's risk tolerance. This man took risks and paid a price.

Likewise, the SAR folks chose to volunteer or work in a profession that puts their own lives at risk. I thank them for that, they deserve our appreciation. I am sure they argue among themselves where that line should be drawn between acceptable and unacceptable risk. If they believed in zero risk tolerance, they would be in a different profession. Where should the acceptable risk line be drawn? Well, I guess I am arguing more towards the side of freedom.

keep-calm-and-don-t-feed-the-troll-22.png Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.

[pilgrimskywheel]

Ooops. That is LOSE! (I've recently been blinded by science, and a lot of hollow platitudes about freedom.)