New guy, first post, lots of questions...

[IslandPete]

I've been reading as much here as possible to answer questions, but figure it's time to start posting some.
First, our general plan. It'll be me, my wife and dog. Planning a flip-flop type hike starting in VA or Harpers Ferry around the beginning of May, heading to ME by the end of August, and flipping back southbound to GA by the end of October. Seems like this will put us in the sweet spot season wise, and will avoid some of the crowds? Will we likely miss the mud in VT and the flies further north? How about temps? Can we go up a range in sleeping bag temps?
We're going to have a thousand questions, but I'll start with those.
Pete

[Traveler]

Welcome to WhiteBlaze!

If you've watched the forum for a while you'll know the site prides itself on having more opinions than writers on a given topic, if you've not seen much of this then you are in for a real treat.

Your general plan, to me anyway, sounds doable. There are some factors that may play into things like age, backpacking experience, and capability to be self sustaining and equipped on a long distance trail. But even with those unknowns the plan is pretty straight forward. A few things, which I am sure others will add to quickly:

You will likely miss black fly season in northern New England, though there may be swarms here and there that will make life interesting. Head nets and a broad brimmed hat are cheap and light insurance for that nuisance.

Weather as you move north will likely improve from May through August, with September being perhaps the best time of year for weather in the White and Mahoosic mountain ranges.

You probably won't avoid crowds along the northern walk, especially as you move into the Whites and beyond. These are very popular and difficult mountains that attract a serious number of people. If you are planning to stay at the huts in the Whites, its best to make your reservations early and stay on schedule between them.

Specifics on clothing and sleep systems are typically driven by the season itself in that year. There are some folks here from the area who have considerable experience and can probably give you the best idea at this point of what you might expect.

Last in case you were unaware, there are some sections of the AT that dogs are specifically not allowed on. GSMNP, Baxter SP are the main places of concern where you will have to make boarding and perhaps transportation arrangements for the dog prior to getting there. You will want to be sure the dog wears color on the flop side of the trip if you find yourself there in hunting season.

Sounds like a grand adventure and I wish you well!

[Turk6177]

I ran into a lot of flip flop thru hikers that did almost exactly what you are describing. There was definitely a flip flop bubble that we encountered near the NOC and GSMNP, which probably numbered around 20+ hikers over the course of 10 days in late October.

[Hikingjim]

That seems a good timeline. You'll get some bugs, but you would miss the worst of black flies in vt/maine
You'll probably have a lot of "change of tstorm" in the forecast in the whites with that timeline, but with proper caution you can deal with that. Can't have everything perfect!

you're going to be pretty good for temps for the majority of it. Early may north of HF is nice temps and by the time you hit vt/nh you'll be into summer
I don't know what you have for gear, but something like a 40 bag would be pretty good (with a bit of backup layers if you're chilly). You could add a bit more later if you run into some cold long-range forecasts

[Slo-go'en]

First off, the rocks in Pennsylvania can be really hard on a dogs paws and you'll have no break in time to toughen them up. There all kinds of other issues with hiking with a dog, like rattle snakes, ticks, heat and lack of frequent and easy to get to water but that's a subject for another tread.

As for missing the mud in Vermud, that's hard to say. With a May 1st start you'll likely get to VT around the end of June. If it's been a reasonably wet spring (and it could be this year) that's when it starts to dry out and when the Black Flies start to spawn. MA is known for it's viscous mosquitos that time of year too.

A 30 degree bag is usually okay for that time of year. With the shift in the weather patterns this year, we might have a more traditional cold and wet spring this time around.

[IslandPete]

Thanks guys!
As far as age, experience, and capability, I'll be 60 by the time we finish, the wife and dog both younger! No backpacking, but lots of hiking camping, and we're all pretty capable and resilient.
The hat and headnet are a good idea.
20 hikers around us is OK, but I'd like to avoid the 100's starting in GA in the spring! And with the dog, we're unlikely to be using the shelters or huts.
As for the temps/bags, the weather averages show we shouldn't,(but might), hit temps much below 50. I know that's anybody's guess now, but i was wondering if a 40 deg bag with a liner would work for the cold nights, the bag alone in between, and the liner alone when it gets really hot? I would think 3 of us in one tent will help on the cold nights, but if my wife starts getting too cold, it will go downhill fast!
If the spring turns out to be extra wet and cold, we can start later, as long as we can make it south before it gets too cold at that end...

[IslandPete]

First off, the rocks in Pennsylvania can be really hard on a dogs paws and you'll have no break in time to toughen them up. There all kinds of other issues with hiking with a dog, like rattle snakes, ticks, heat and lack of frequent and easy to get to water but that's a subject for another tread.

As for missing the mud in Vermud, that's hard to say. With a May 1st start you'll likely get to VT around the end of June. If it's been a reasonably wet spring (and it could be this year) that's when it starts to dry out and when the Black Flies start to spawn. MA is known for it's viscous mosquitos that time of year too.

A 30 degree bag is usually okay for that time of year. With the shift in the weather patterns this year, we might have a more traditional cold and wet spring this time around.

Slo, are you always this upbeat and optimistic?

[Hikingjim]

I don't really like liners. They tend to be either heavy or not as advertised temp-wise, in my experience
I would rather take a 40 bag and some decent clothes (since you can wear them in camp as well if it's chilly), a light beanie if you want, etc. Should be at least a proper EN 40f rating for your wife... some stuff claims 40 and is more a 50+. You could go 30 if she might sleep cold. That wouldn't be too bad in the summer, based on where you'll be, if you vent it well

If it gets cold at the end it's not a big deal. You can pick up something in October or whenever you need it. Like a cheap light puffy jacket or something

[Slo-go'en]

Slo, are you always this upbeat and optimistic?

Yes, always

I've 30 years and over 6,000 miles of experience on the AT. It's not all sunshine and butterflies out there. In fact, a lot of the time it can be down right miserable.

Since you apparently live in the Bahamas and no doubt used to living in sandals and shorts, New England weather may come as a serious shock to your system. The bad weather usually comes in April, but last year the months flipped with April being kind of nice and May really rotten. A lot of the flip floppers bailed in PA during a cold, wet 2 week period in early May. Those PA rocks which are a pain under the best of conditions are really nasty when wet. OTOH, having done PA in both hot and humid weather and coming close to dying from heat stroke, and doing PA with cold and rainy weather and coming close to dying from hypothermia, the cold and rainy weather was much better.

A 40 degree bag and liner is okay when the weather is pleasant, but when you hit a rainy spell in the spring you start to suffer. I did last May in PA with that set up when the rainy spell happened and was very jealous of those who had warmer bags then me. I kept telling the group I was with I had "loft envy" since their bags had it and mine didn't. And I'm used to cold weather, living in northern NH and keeping my house at 55 to 60 degrees all winter.

We have dry years and wet years on the east coast. The last few years with the El Nino have been on the dry side. This year might be a wet year. We'll just have wait and see how it goes.

[Slo-go'en]

BTW, when a bag is rated for some temperature, the advertised rating is generally the "probably keep you alive" temp. The comfort rating is 10 to 15 degrees higher. So, a bag which is claimed to be 40 degrees is more of a 50 degree bag. Even though you see the "average" temp to be no less then 50, that's not accurate for the mountains and it can get really, really chilly early in the morning, especially if there are clear skies. It can be in the low 40's early in the morning and 90's in the afternoon.

[ScareBear]

Bags all vary in how the manufacturer "rates" them for temp. The "EN" is a "standard" that gives you some way to compare claims of warmth. Kelty, for example, makes no bones that they claim 5 to 10 degrees warmer than the EN rating.

There are THREE EN ratings you need to be concerned with:
1. EN COMFORT LEVEL-That temperature an adult FEMALE can lie in a RELAXED position in the bag, wearing LONG UNDERWEAR AND A HAT, and sleeping on a ONE INCH PAD, and can get a restful sleep without feeling cold, IN A TENT.
2. EN LOWER LIMIT- That temperature an ADULT MALE can lie in the FETAL position in the bag, wearing LONG UNDERWEAR AND A HAT, and sleeping on a ONE INCH pad can get a night's sleep, IN A TENT.
3. EN EXTREME LIMIT-THAT TEMPERATURE AT WHICH A FEMALE IN LONG UNDERWEAR, SOCKS, HAT AND CURLED IN THE FETAL POSITION CAN SURVIVE SIX HOURS WITHOUT DEVELOPING HYPOTHERMIA...IN A TENT.

So, your actual "comfort" level is going to vary, possibly GREATLY, from the ratings.

It is easier to vent than it is to create warmth. I would always go warmer. You are not cold-hardened. If the low is going to be 40 degrees, I would think nothing less than a 30 degree bag for you will do. Your wife may want a 20 degree bag.

[map man]

You say you are going to start in Virginia or Harpers Ferry in early May. My preference would be for a start at the road crossing near Waynesboro VA. You give yourself, spouse and dog a longer amount of time to get trail conditioned before hitting the worst of the bad rocks starting in mid-Pennsylvania. You also start on some of the easiest AT trail there is. You also have lots and lots of road crossings in the first hundred miles -- seems like no matter how well you prepare you may very well need to make a trip to the outfitters in Waynesboro or Luray to make gear changes, shoe changes, etcetera, once you are underway. You also delay, compared to starting in Harpers Ferry, how soon you will get to CT, MA and VT (in a typical year the bugs and mud may not be as bad there if you delay getting there by a couple weeks).

[orthofingers]

Will your dog tolerate doggie booties? The paws will take a beating on those rocks in Pa, Nh, and
Maine.

[IslandPete]

Still going back and forth on the 30 vs 40 deg bags. I can't help thinking 30 is going to be way more than we need much of the time, but I guess you need to prepare for the worst.
The bottom of Skyline Drive at Waynesboro/Afton is actually where we're hoping to start, and for many of the reasons you suggested. Thanks!
We actually did get dog booties to try on the sailboat. My wife put one on him, and he wouldn't touch that foot to the ground. While funny to us, not so much for him. We may try them again. He's got good feet, and is very athletic.
If Orthofingers is an orthopedist, I may have other questions for you. I've broken both my ankles twice, and my shoulder/collarbones a total of three times. Those are the areas likely to take the most abuse during the hike, so I have some concerns...
Pete

[Gambit McCrae]

Slo, are you always this upbeat and optimistic?

Its one thing to be optimistic that the weather will be nice...Its another to be realistic.

Like most people on here, Slo - due to experience, tells it how it is. If you want optimistic advice Go over to Facebook and post your plans there.

I have a dog that has put about 1700 miles on the trail with a backpack. And I have worn him out. He has followed me before (in the southern AT), until the pads were worn off his feet, and it happened over a 6 mile time frame, and in return, my dog does not go on trips longer then 26-30 miles now. I learned the hard way that long distance hiking is not for dogs.

So I am not a dog hater who dislikes seeing them on the trail, in fact when I do see them on the trail I enjoy them. But like most dog owners, you will know better then I, and will take your dog to the AT after living on an Island, and it will end up effecting your trip.


How's that for a dose of optimism

Post Edit:
Oh and those dog booties? Right off the bat if the dog has due claws you can forget using them. Secondly, dog booties are only good for wearing all the hair off the area covers up by the boot, and is a great way to "rot" your dogs feet. They are simply a marketing scheme to get people to spend money. Speaking from experience here too.

[IslandPete]

My response to Slo was in jest. If I didn't want realistic responses here from people like you and he, I wouldn't have asked.
As for the dog, he's one of our biggest concerns. We'll see how he goes, and I have no intention of breaking him down. I don't have a lot of hope that the booties will work. We're planning on using two of our own vehicles, and leapfrogging with them, actually heading north by hiking south. That will give us a chance every few days or weeks to evaluate him and us both.
Keep the information coming, good or bad, I'm appreciating it!

[Gambit McCrae]

My response to Slo was in jest. If I didn't want realistic responses here from people like you and he, I wouldn't have asked.
As for the dog, he's one of our biggest concerns. We'll see how he goes, and I have no intention of breaking him down. I don't have a lot of hope that the booties will work. We're planning on using two of our own vehicles, and leapfrogging with them, actually heading north by hiking south. That will give us a chance every few days or weeks to evaluate him and us both.
Keep the information coming, good or bad, I'm appreciating it!

No one has the intentions of breaking their dog down on the trail, its going to happen on its own. My blunt response is leave the dog at home, simplify your hike by eliminating both vehicles and once on the trail, learn to HYOH. Happy trails

[Cheyou]

[QUOTE=Gambit McCrae;2118333]No one has the intentions of breaking their dog down on the trail, its going to happen on its own. My blunt response is leave the dog at home, simplify your hike by eliminating both vehicles and once on the trail, learn to HYOH. Happy trails[/

Saw many dogs on the trail . Old ones ,young ones , the owners looked worse off then the dog. UFO carried his and his dogs food . Canned and dry food . He took great care of his dog . Had to lift the dog up in the giant rock areas in NY. He stayed away from shelters so not to bother others. Lots more work and weight to hike w a dog.

No way I would b having car and leap froging w them .

But in the end we all do what we want and Hike our own hike.

[Venchka]

Slo, are you always this upbeat and optimistic?

Factual and realistic will prepare you better.
Please read the GSMNP rules for thru hikers (permits, Shelton, etc.) and dogs on the trails.
Have a great trip.
Wayne


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[Venchka]

Factual and realistic will prepare you better.
Please read the GSMNP rules for thru hikers (permits, Shelton, etc.) and dogs on the trails.
Have a great trip.
Wayne


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Looks like I'm late to the party.
Disregard my previous transmission.
Wayne


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