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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlpineKevin View Post
    But starting fires everywhere in the dry wilderness is ok.
    No, fires outside of developed campgrounds is illegal in Southern California and almost all of the Sierra. So, just like packing out your TP is the right thing to do, so is not having a campfire every night. It ain't the AT.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlpineKevin View Post
    You are suggesting that toilet paper decomposes at more than 2 months if there are other holes with toilet paper in them within a few miles?????
    Yes, that exactly what I'm saying.........

    Really? That's how you interpret my post. That explains a lot.

    Go ahead, doo doo it your way. That's how we get in these kinds of messes to begin with.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllDownhillFromHere View Post
    Years ago when hiking the AT a gal from SoCal told me about this. Is "smearing" really a thing? The supposed logic was that it all quickly dries out and blows away like dust.
    Thats my understanding, although I've never had to do it, they was always somewhere for me to bury it.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllDownhillFromHere View Post
    Years ago when hiking the AT a gal from SoCal told me about this. Is "smearing" really a thing? The supposed logic was that it all quickly dries out and blows away like dust.
    I don't believe 'smearing' is encouraged anymore.
    For it to be effective, it has to be spread VERY thin. But apparently when people tried this method in the field, they almost universally never spread the crap around thin enough. The result was crap spread all over the place that took a while to decompose.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    I don't believe 'smearing' is encouraged anymore.
    For it to be effective, it has to be spread VERY thin. But apparently when people tried this method in the field, they almost universally never spread the crap around thin enough. The result was crap spread all over the place that took a while to decompose.
    The visual image has me LMAO! I wonder what a foreign visitor would think of the fields of crap?

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by burger View Post
    Common sense? Ha. I trust today's average PCT hiker to judge fire risk several inches down into the duff about as far as I can throw one of them. There are just too many idiots out there to rely on people's good judgment to not start a fire. Almost every year now, PCT hikers start fires. Why create more of that?
    We are in violent agreement.
    enemy of unnecessary but innovative trail invention gadgetry

  7. #87

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    Alpin Kevin, decomposing rates vary depending on environment. Your linked article isn't scientific. All it proves is in one location, it took 1 month to break down. It made no attemp to repeat the experiment in other environments. With a little thought, it should be obvious why a spot in the low lands of Georgia might decompose TP faster then the deserts of SoCal or even the High Sierra with its poor soil. Actual decomposition rates depend on temperature, moisture, sunlight, air, and the bacterial and microbes in the soil. A desert's soil is mostly lacking in moisture and the bacterial/microbial life that helps break it down. Western mountain environments also lack it as the soil is pretty poor compared to a heavily vegetation low land locations back east. Most of the PCT travels through areas that get very little rain outside of winter snow, so once it melts off, the soil sits dry the rest of the year. There is a reason why parts of southern oregon is called a desert even though it has pine trees.

  8. #88
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    This reminds me of hiking the PCT in CA with a guy who'd attempted it the year earlier. We got to a switchback and he said he remembered taking a crap in this very spot the year before, and covered it with...that rock! He turned the rock over and the TP was as fresh as last year. Pretty nice experiment.

    Most of my trail work is new tread, but when I'm on maintenance, that's just disgusting.
    "Throw a loaf of bread and a pound of tea in an old sack and jump over the back fence." John Muir on expedition planning

  9. #89

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    It gets easier...don't sweat it.

  10. #90
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    I once was going up Mt Whitney from the west side, picked up a wag bag from the ranger station, and went up to Guitar Lake to camp. I had been in a extremely consistent 1-poop-per-day schedule, right when I woke up. So the next day I was confident when I opened up the bag, did my business, closed it up, stashed it in my pack, and went on my way. About 15 minutes later I realized with dread that I had to go again. I ran behind a boulder, opened up the wag bag with the **** already in it, and filled it to capacity. It was disgusting. There is no point to this story, I just thought it was funny.

    It's obviously best to pack out TP, I don't think that anyone could argue that is what is best for the PCT and the experience of those who come after you. I like whoever made the comparison to abstinence only education though.

    If you're absolutely not going to pack it out, train your body to pee after you poop. It only takes a couple times. Finish, wipe, throw the TP in the properly dug cathole, and then pee on it. If you can't pee pour water on it, it doesn't take too much. Stir it up with a stick and leave the stick ****-side-down in the hole.

    The end result is basically like you ate toilet paper and passed it through your body along with the rest of the stuff. It's just a sludge, there's not really anything for animals to dig up, and it'll decompose faster because TP is designed to dissolve more quickly in water.

    Again, packing out is better, but this isn't a bad alternative. Just don't be an *******

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlpineKevin View Post
    You are an idiot. Decomposition takes far longer un-buried than buried. Decomposition buried of WOOD PAPER takes 2 months. Studies have been done.
    Yes, well name calling in a rational conversation is certainly signature of maturity and intellect.

    Toilet paper today can be made of recycled paper or with various wood by-products, or in various combinations. The manufacturing processes also impact the ability of this material to break down. Essentially, not all TP is made alike and have identical properties. The key issue is precipitation, which in arid environments is not all that common (hence the climatic designation). The higher the precipitation rate is in a given area, the faster decomposition of human waste and TP will occur (with exception of man made fiber material).

    Dispersible and non-dispersible paper and fabric products are an issue in several areas including septic systems, sanitary sewers, storm sewers, composting toilets, there are some serious costs and a number of health issues from exposed human waste. The link you provided was an interesting controlled experiment, however there are several actual scientific studies that can be found if one searches "Scientific studies on dispersible and non-dispersible paper and fabrics".

    Suffice to say, used TP disposed into arid climes are an issue that impacts human health and the natural beauty of an area regardless if one sees it that way or not. Packing it out is really the best method to avoid unpleasant consequences others may experience from it.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    Thats my understanding, although I've never had to do it, they was always somewhere for me to bury it.
    In high alpine environments such as found in the Sierra, there's often no soil, only talus or slabs. So this is the recommended method since you can't bury it. Smear it thin and it dries and blows away.

    A good example of all this is found at Gayley Camp, up on the Palisade Glacier. Almost every rock you turn over has a turd under it. Some of them must be many years old, they are so dessicated. It's sort of gross.

  13. #93
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    When I hike the PCT, my plan is to not take a dump.... guess you could call me full of *****....

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by jj442434 View Post
    Stir it up with a stick and leave the stick ****-side-down in the hole.
    If you are getting a JMT permit from Yosemite, you are required to listen to the Ranger's spiel on rules and LNT principles.

    One of the things this spiel specifically requested that people NOT do is leave a stick sticking out from their cat hole. Eventually someone will come along and kick the stick fling poop... most likely on themselves.

    While not specifically an LNT principle, I have read elsewhere that the best way to help break the poop down faster is to stir it with water and soil before covering your cat hole.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwschenk View Post
    In high alpine environments such as found in the Sierra, there's often no soil, only talus or slabs. So this is the recommended method since you can't bury it. Smear it thin and it dries and blows away.

    A good example of all this is found at Gayley Camp, up on the Palisade Glacier. Almost every rock you turn over has a turd under it. Some of them must be many years old, they are so dessicated. It's sort of gross.
    thanks, sounds like a plan.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
    I
    One of the things this spiel specifically requested that people NOT do is leave a stick sticking out from their cat hole.
    Huh, that's interesting. I've actually debated that internally for a while, and I settled on the stick in the hole method. That's mostly because the soil is what filters the poo and keeps that bad stuff out of our drinking water. If you just fling the poo stick into a bush where nobody will step on it, rain and snow will eventually get to it and carry it unfiltered to a water source. By my way of thinking, someone possibly stepping on it and unearthing it is the lesser of two evils. I'd be curious to hear someone more knowledgeable than me on the matter chime in.

    I have read elsewhere that the best way to help break the poop down faster is to stir it with water and soil before covering your cat hole.

    While not specifically an LNT principle, I have read elsewhere that the best way to help break the poop down faster is to stir it with water and soil before covering your cat hole.
    I'm really not trying to personally attack you here or make this thread any more contentious than it already is, but this was kinda the whole point of my previous post...

  17. #97
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    The while thing ios cool, but check out around 1:40.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by jj442434 View Post
    I'm really not trying to personally attack you here or make this thread any more contentious than it already is, but this was kinda the whole point of my previous post...
    I took your point to be instructions on how to get TP to break down faster.
    For those that pack out their TP, I was only trying to augment that point by saying the same instructions will break down poop faster as well.

  19. #99
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    Ah I see now. My bad

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by jj442434 View Post
    Huh, that's interesting. I've actually debated that internally for a while, and I settled on the stick in the hole method. That's mostly because the soil is what filters the poo and keeps that bad stuff out of our drinking water. If you just fling the poo stick into a bush where nobody will step on it, rain and snow will eventually get to it and carry it unfiltered to a water source. By my way of thinking, someone possibly stepping on it and unearthing it is the lesser of two evils. I'd be curious to hear someone more knowledgeable than me on the matter chime in.
    Come to think of it...
    The ranger's spiel does not include the instructions to wet/mix/stir your poop. I'm sure they would be happy if they could just get everyone to dig a proper 6" cat hole. So their specific instructions were to not MARK your cat hole with a stick to avoid flinging poop.
    You are quite right about the soil providing protection from the germs in your poop, so for those that stir, I guess the best instructions would be to either use a short enough stick that you can bury it completely, or break off and bury the dirty part.

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