MLD Superlight Bivy Floor Material

[fastfoxengineering]

I plan on carrying a piece of tyvek or polycryo. I kinda prefer the tyvek over polycryo. Again at a weight penalty. I'm trying to keep my shelter under a pound including stakes and the ground sheet. So far on paper I'm right at 16oz. I feel like I'm the future i could get by with a smaller or cat cut tarp to shave an ounce, maybe and ounce and a half from that. But as of now, I like my 7x9. But I mostly set it up like an a frame. So a cat cut would probably suit me better.

I know people say bivys can suck out east. But I plan on always keeping it in my pack. I feel the tarp and lightweight bivy is a good solution for a do it all shelter from the East to the west coast. Of course, in mild and not winter conditions.

Thanks for your replies

I'm pretty excited about getting a piece of kit from MLD. I am eager to see what everyone is talking about saying their quality is above the rest. I own gear from zpacks, ula, EE quilts, hammock gear, etc.

Maybe I'll post some pics when I get it

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[MuddyWaters]

Pretend your on a warm, humid/damp drizzling day with mosquitos swarming on edge of swampy area

Still think its a do-it-all shelter?

No such thing unfortunately. Always tradeoffs

But....no one said you can only have one

[Dogwood]

The borah bivy seems like a nice option at the price point.

What does the extra $75 get me from MLD?

I'm a MLD fan so you'll get a biased answer from me. But, here goes. Ron's worked with CF doing bivies and tarps for quite some time. I really like his standards which hit an UL sweet spot balance for me in terms of wt, performance, function, volume, above avg useful lifespan for UL gear, and sizing(no minimal sizing to shed some grams which often go unnoticed). If I'm seeking CF gear I look first to HMG, MLD, ZP and maybe Locus for mids. The added labor in the way Ron does his seams(NEVER in any MLD tarp or bivy have I had a seam issue or leakage), the heavier costlier Pro silny top w/ 3X DWR, and a few other things in terms of materials and construction combined with the other attributes make me willing to spend more on a MLD bivy.

I know mld's quality is tier 1. Stitching will be perfect. But functionally, what does the mld offer over borah gears.

Also the mld in cuben is listed at around 6oz and the borah at around 4.5oz. can you enlighten me on why the mld weighs more.

Does the MLD top fabric offer any advantages over the argon in the borah gear.

I know both will be good pieces of kit. Aside from supporting mld and knowing the piece of gear will be crafted too perfection. Does it offer any real advantage over the borah gear. Which I've read is a high quality product with attention to detail.

All good questions. I can tell you some reasons why the Borah is lighter wt. 1) Argon 67 top fabric weighs less than the MLD Mountain Pro silny top fabric 2) the Borah is sized slightly smaller in the 4.5 oz version than the 6 oz MLD. Compare the sizing carefully. It could make a difference in comfort and possibly performance for folks on the cusp of bivy sizing. 3) larger netting area over face in the Borah save grams. As stated earlier if you get the MLD full netting in the head area that 6 oz wt might be some grams less too. Contact Ron about his specs on that. The wts aren't all that different as might first appear! So might want to look at the comparison from other characteristics.

As Miner stated, none of this is to imply, that the Borah bivy can't get the job done. In my opinion if you're using a larger area tarp as you are for 1 p the Borah with the side zip option should handle whatever splash you MIGHT experience in the hands of a knowledgable tarper while saving some $. The across the chest and 20" down the side zip makes for easier bivy entry/exit particularly if you're setting up a tarp in the A frame config. and/or are a lanky or big person. Combine this set up with a full head net for insect pressure(if needed), slightly less wt, possibly less condensation, and less of claustrophobic feeling.

From my perspective here is where the top fabrics perform differently 1) pro Silny MLD uses has a much better DWR hence Water Resistance than the Argon 67 2) BUT that might make the Argon 67 slightly more breathable. I think you can look up some spec comparisons on BPL since I remember reading about this discussion. In short, HH, longer time before wetting out, longer duration before the DWR starts to become comprised for the Pro silny MLD uses than the Argon 67. 2) Possibly slightly greater durability in terms of usability with the Pro silny

I've had some Argon 67 gear.

I think you're asking the right questions. You must be an engineer not having hit the Lotto yet.

[Dogwood]

I plan on carrying a piece of tyvek or polycryo. I kinda prefer the tyvek over polycryo. Again at a weight penalty. I'm trying to keep my shelter under a pound including stakes and the ground sheet. So far on paper I'm right at 16oz. I feel like I'm the future i could get by with a smaller or cat cut tarp to shave an ounce, maybe and ounce and a half from that. But as of now, I like my 7x9. But I mostly set it up like an a frame. So a cat cut would probably suit me better.

I know people say bivys can suck out east. But I plan on always keeping it in my pack. I feel the tarp and lightweight bivy is a good solution for a do it all shelter from the East to the west coast. Of course, in mild and not winter conditions.

Thanks for your replies

I'm pretty excited about getting a piece of kit from MLD. I am eager to see what everyone is talking about saying their quality is above the rest. I own gear from zpacks, ula, EE quilts, hammock gear, etc.

Maybe I'll post some pics when I get it

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Pretend your on a warm, humid/damp drizzling day with mosquitos swarming on edge of swampy area

Still think its a do-it-all shelter?

No such thing unfortunately. Always tradeoffs

But....no one said you can only have one

Both of you need to recognize that a bivy is not just a shelter system element but also a sleep system element. Read #'s 1-9 as Ron lists here: http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com...products_id=30

And, I agree with you FFE that your gear path is quite adaptable to different regions and situations.

[Dogwood]

I'm not expecting UL gear to last forever. However, there have been zpacks tents survive a triple crown. MLD mids with thousands of miles on them showing little wear used in 4 season conditions. I met a guy using an arc blast on the AT that he said he also used on the PCT and CDT. I've read accounts of single pieces of polycryo lasting a thru hike.

I'd say these are uncommon occurrences where I'd want to know the exact details about how a ZP .51 CF tent or Arc Blast lasted for a TC or both the PCT and CDT. I'd strongly suspect there are vital details that offer context that are missing from these accounts. Remember, ZP gear wts have increased in the last few yrs for the Arc Blast so ZP's approach is to aim for greater durability or offer it as an option to appeal to a broader market. I assume ZP doesn't want that one and done Go Lite judgement assigned to them across the board. This may also be a factor in why they used the 1.0 CF bottom in the Splash bivy?

My point, with proper care, quality ultralight gear can give great service life. On the other hand, those same pieces of equipment have been shredded in a few months by people who don't treat ul gear with the care it needs.

For me, an Arc Blast only lasts 3000 miles. After that I tend to have so much duct tape on it it defeats the UL purposes of having a CF UL pack. BESIDES, at 22.5 oz(w/ hip belt add ons) at 57L it's not the absolute lightest wt pack around in that volume range. And, at $375 for a new CF Arc Blast every 3000 miles, which is about 14 months for me, is a steep price to pay for something I'm not getting the durability and wt savings I desire. SO, the Arc Blast FOR ME is opted for not because I'm CF crazy but because using it on a limited basis it offers performance value attributes that are desired.

[Malto]

My two cents even though a design has been made. I don't believe cuben is a suitable material in an application where there is abrasion. I have it on my net inner floor and that ounce weight savings has already resulted in a couple of patches. (My typical through down site is usually picked in the dark and less than ideal.).

Most of my hiking nights have been spent in a TiGoat bivy with a Silnyl floor likely very similar to MLDs. After a few years I held it up to like and there were dozens of pin holes, easy to repair with a small dap of silicone. I also don't used any ground sheet. IMHO, one of the many uses of a bivy is the ground sheet functionality.

[fastfoxengineering]

So you bivy users. If I may ask, what led you to using a bivy in the first place. Are you cowboy campers? Or like to use small tarps?

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[Miner]

Back when tarps were the only way to get a sub 1 pound shelter, I wanted even lighter, so I I ditched my 8x10 silnylon for one of the first cuben fiber that MLD made. The default size back then was 8' long. Just prior to that had picked up a titanium goat Bivy since I knew I wanted a smaller tarp. Realized I really enjoyed cowboy camping. I really hate doing any camp chores, so avoiding setting up a shelter if at all possible is very agreeable to me.

Back to the original topic. Forgot to mention this. I have a MLD bug bivy with silnylon floor. Only used for about 5 days and has 2small holes in it from abrasion. Camped on a rock slab in Yosemite as it was the flatest spot in an area covered in rocks. So I don't really think of silnylon being that much better in durability compared to a heavy weight cuben fiber. It does pack easier and smaller when stuffing due to being slippery.

[fastfoxengineering]

Has utilizing a bivy improved your cowboy camping? How so if yes

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[fastfoxengineering]

Furthermore what tarp do you typically use with your bivy. I know you like to cowboy. But I'm assuming your carry a tarp for less than good weather

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[sethd513]

I just opened up my snowyside event bivy with Cuban floor. First impression about the floor was yes thin but manageable. Unfortunately I don't have the means to hike thousands of miles every year. I do see this bivy with care lasting a while.

Like muddywaters said there is no do it all shelter. I was hoping this would be it but it won't be as the bug netting is finicky.

I think though the oz or 2 on the shelter that you save,then finding the little things you can swap or leave out to save a half oz or oz makes a big difference in the end. And keeps it interesting.


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[Miner]

I always carry my tarp (MLD Grace Solo CF, custom narrower width at 9' length). Rarely use it though. I resist putting it up to the point of pushing my luck cowboy camping. Get away with it more often then not, but due get burned occasionally.
I do use my bivy at least 80% of the time, even if I leave the top unzipped and folded over. Warmth retention, wind blockage, bug protection, and a ground cloth (when I don't use a polycro sheet). A couple of times, used it as a light sleeping bag when it was way too hot for my down quilt. I think I use it as much out of habit then real need sometimes. When I did the northern part of the AT, it was convenient to use in the shelters.
I tried a zpacks Hexamid shape tarp, but went back to the grace solo tarp again when the dimensions didn't really work well with my bivy. It was the bivy or the Hexamid, and the Hexamid went.

[Dogwood]

So you bivy users. If I may ask, what led you to using a bivy in the first place. Are you cowboy campers? Or like to use small tarps?

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Multi use UL principles. Just said a bivy isn't just a shelter element but also a sleep system element.

Ron lists some good reasons which were just linked to. I'll add some of my own notes.

1: Part of the total sleep heat retention system - adds 5 - 15 degrees of warmth - especially if any slight wind at all get under/around your shelter.

Paring a bivy with a quilt, sleeping bag, or liner changes the characteristics of all those three sleep system elements. Now, I don't experience drafts with the quilt when tossing and turning. Now, I don't need a separate sleeping bag at a 15* less temp rating or with a different face fabric. Now when I use a sewn thru seams sleeping bag - WM Highlite 35* - those cold spots aren't as noticeable.

2: Bug Protection

Now, I can eliminate a bug net or bug bivy which also saves wt. When I do this I hang a cord from the hood apex to a low hanging tree branch, underside of a tarp ridge line loop, etc to hold it up. Saves wt again.

3: Built in Ground Cloth

Saves wt again of a ground sheet.

4: Protects from any blown or splashed rain /snow that nets in under your overhead shelter.

This has the potential for conserving down loft.

5: Saves weight from the total shelter system. It's a 7oz multipurpose piece of gear that allows a lighter sleeping bag, no need for a ground cloth or a separate bug protection system. Allows the use of a smaller overhead shelter.

Now I can take a lighter wt less warm sleeping bag because the warmth is being made up in part with the bivy. The bivy allows for the option of a truly minimalist coverage UL/SUL tarp. There's two ways of looking at that though as far as I'm concerned 1) throw a bivy into the mix if it makes sense with a minimalist sized very UL tarp 2) don't gram weenie the tarp coverage size and one might be able to ditch the bivy when no/light bug pressure, sleeping bag temp rating is adequate on its own which is in the sleeping bag/quilt quiver, it's not an anticipated rainy hike, etc.

6: Can be used alone for night temps above about 65 degrees when you do not need a sleeping bag but do need some wind/ water protection, a bit of warmth like a sheet and bug protection.

YUP! SHWEET having a 6-7 oz sleeping bag that has some wind and rain protection.

7: Can be used alone with no overhead tarp for cowboy camping.

YUP. Me like like.

8: Pairs perfectly with a backcountry style quilt to limit warm air venting during night moves.

Already stated this.

9: By putting your sleep pad inside the bivy you increase the sleep pad/system thermal efficiency by limiting convective heat loss.

YUP. But doing so might entail allowing for the sleeping pad thickness and sleeping bag/quilt loft thickness when choosing the bivy size.

Has utilizing a bivy improved your cowboy camping? How so if yes

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Yes. It has allowed me to sleep in some damp places that I wouldn't have with just a untreated down sleeping bag. i.e.; caves, grassy fields or low lying areas that might be prone to dew, at the base of waterfalls where no tent would fit, on ledges during climbs or traverses in wind swept or exposed areas.

Furthermore what tarp do you typically use with your bivy. I know you like to cowboy. But I'm assuming your carry a tarp for less than good weather

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Sometimes I'll use WP bivies in stand alone fashion without a tarp. Less likely to do that with a WR bivy. What tarp is used is dependent on things like precipitation, wind, activity, etc.

[fastfoxengineering]

Thanks for your response. I had similar thinking when deciding a bivy will probably be good for me. All of those points seem to be the main advantages of utilizing a bivy.

Care to share any negatives you've experienced using a superlight bivy. How did you deal with them?



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[Malto]

So you bivy users. If I may ask, what led you to using a bivy in the first place. Are you cowboy campers? Or like to use small tarps?

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Cowboy camping most of this time. If not then use small tarp, mid.

[Malto]

Has utilizing a bivy improved your cowboy camping? How so if yes

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A bivy has made cowboy camping super easy. I have my quilt rolled up in my bivy so I pull it out of the pack, unroll it then put the air mat in. No ground cloths to deal with, and the bivy provides some protection from dew and dirt. Also, you have to factor in whether you use a quilt or bag. With a quilt you also get draft and wind protection. Not a big deal if using a bag but it deals with the inherent downsides of using a quilt. This is why I believe the sleep system and shelter needs to looked at and optimized as a system, not as individual elements.

Something unexpected that I learned on the PCT was how well a bivy did in the wind. Without the use of a shelter you keep a low wind profile and the wind doesn't flap or pound yourtarp or other shelter.

[Dogwood]

Thanks for your response. I had similar thinking when deciding a bivy will probably be good for me. All of those points seem to be the main advantages of utilizing a bivy.

Care to share any negatives you've experienced using a superlight bivy. How did you deal with them?

Not per say any brand or model of bivy one potential negative is condensation inside the bivy. Moisture or rime on top of the sleeping bag or on the outside of a bivy can form. I'm still figuring out how to avoid this in below freezing temps. Note: don't breathe or bring wet things into an enclosed bivy.

Addressing this in non freezing temps is a combination of breathability in the top layer and ventilation with WR bivies like the Superlight.... With the full head net and chest down the side 20" option you've chosen combined with the ample 1 p tarp coverage decreased condensation and increased dryness under the tarp to spread out a little should be enjoyed. Learn when and where you might throw a bivy into the shelter/SLEEP SYSTEM equation and keep developing CS selection awareness.

Using any bivy is really cowboy camping which many will be averse to that seek refuge enclosed in a hammock, roomy tent, roomy lean-to, or fully or mostly enclosed shaped tarp/tarptent - Hexamid, Solomid, Echo II, Cirriform, Henry Shire's designs. It's not for everyone all the time...even in my own backpacking world. I see bivy use without a tarp to be a rather minimalist 'I want Nature in my face" affair. Everyone is not going to appreciate that or having all their kit laid out on the ground at a sleep site. For this reason I see stand alone bivy use for those who want to travel light and who can be more embracing of the environment.

Don't let anyone tell you bivies are awful in the east. That's a gross generalization often made by folks with little or no personal bivy experiences.

[fastfoxengineering]

I figured that. Im not really a shelter dweller. But an at thru hiker who spends alot of time in shelters I think a bivy like a superlight makes sense. Small footprint. Bug protection. And blocks wind in those drafty shelters.

I'm hiking the sunapee Greenway at the end of April. There are nice clean shelters on that trail and you typically have them to yourself. I plan to take the bivy on that 50 mile trip and utilize it in the shelters.

The more I LD hike.. the more minimilast I'm becoming. I'm comfortable in a nice tent but improving my skills and going with less has given me more freedom on the trail in my opinion.

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[fastfoxengineering]

This year, I have a 40* quilt at 13oz and plan on trying a 12 oz frameless pack to really see if ultralight hiking is for men

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[fastfoxengineering]

Not men... Me

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