Montana/Idaho CDT Advice Needed

[greenpete]

In August I plan to hike the CDT through the Centennial Range, from about Red Rock Pass to I-15, or just shy thereof. It's located NW of Yellowstone, and the trail runs east to west. Who has hiked this stretch, and what advice can you offer as far as good camp locations, water, ease/difficulty, road accessibility, etc? Also, I'm driving there from a great distance, so where is a safe place to leave my car for a few days? Thank you.

[bearcreek]

That is a nice hike. Navigation was a bit confusing in places when I went through, so bring your tools. I think some of that may have been improved. Be prepared to go 15 miles between water sources in one area. You might want to leave your car in Lima and hitch to it once you reach I15.

[greenpete]

I'm thinking of parking around Big Sky or further south, then hitching, but I'll keep Lima in mind. My AT daily hiking average is around 15 miles... does the CDT Centennial section have the same up/down, up/down as the AT, or does it generally coast along the ridgeline?

(I like your Ed Abbey quote, by the way)

[burger]

I'm thinking of parking around Big Sky or further south, then hitching, but I'll keep Lima in mind. My AT daily hiking average is around 15 miles... does the CDT Centennial section have the same up/down, up/down as the AT, or does it generally coast along the ridgeline?

(I like your Ed Abbey quote, by the way)

I hate to say this, but if you are asking if the CDT is like the AT, you do not sound ready for a CDT hike. The CDT is poorly/not-at-all marked and water information is often hard to come by. Are you good with navigation? Have you hiked where water sources are uncertain? Are your plans flexible in case you don't make your daily mileage? Do you know what to do when a lightning storm rolls in while you're on an exposed ridgeline? Have you even hiked out West before?

I would check out Mags' quick CDT guide http://www.pmags.com/a-quick-and-dirty-cdt-guide Start there. Then check out some maps so you can see the terrain in the section you want to hike. As a general rule, the CDT features plenty of steep climbing, but at much higher elevation than the AT.

[bearcreek]

I'm thinking of parking around Big Sky or further south, then hitching, but I'll keep Lima in mind. My AT daily hiking average is around 15 miles... does the CDT Centennial section have the same up/down, up/down as the AT, or does it generally coast along the ridgeline?

(I like your Ed Abbey quote, by the way)

By my calculations, bit over 11,000 feet of total climb in about 60 miles. It is fairly strenuous in places, with some big climbs.

[ARambler]

Few of us actually hike this lovely section. Last year, I followed Bearcreek's gps track and it was pretty good tread compared to previous years. My 2008 entry in the Lima log book says south to Yellowstone is tricky water sources. You go past great water every 3 miles and then go up on a ridge for 20+ very dry miles. You can easily carry too much or too little water. It is not a big problem if you follow the Guthook or Leys gps maps.

Logistics are a much bigger issue on the CDT. There is bus service from Lima to ca Idaho Falls, and bus service from there to West Yellowstone.

[greenpete]

Hello burger. Thanks for pitching in. In response to your questions, I only inquired about the altitude changes of the Centennial section of the CDT (and, earlier, about logistics and water sources). So I'm not sure how this makes me unprepared. I'm not hiking for another 4 months, and I'm getting my ducks in line ahead of time, which is why I'm here. Although I've never hiked the CDT, I'm a fairly experienced backpacker and have hiked on exposed ridgelines (including the treacherous White Mountains). I've also hiked out West: day and section hikes in the Cascades and Colorado Rockies. Also, I don't have daily mileage goals. I hike until I'm tired, then find a camp spot. And unlike a lot of AT hikers, I rarely use the shelters, preferring primitive campsites.

My only big concerns at this point are water and navigation. I don't use GPS (don't believe in it for hiking). And I've used a compass and topo map only sparingly. I'm well aware of the differences between AT and CDT. But, like I said, I'm in preparation mode now, which is why I'm here (thanks for the link you provided).

[Dogwood]

In August I plan to hike the CDT through the Centennial Range, from about Red Rock Pass to I-15, or just shy thereof. It's located NW of Yellowstone, and the trail runs east to west. Who has hiked this stretch, and what advice can you offer as far as good camp locations, water, ease/difficulty, road accessibility, etc? Also, I'm driving there from a great distance, so where is a safe place to leave my car for a few days? Thank you.

I've taken three separate pieced together CDT routes through there. They were tough... Many miles were not marked/signed..circa 09, 2010, 2012. Navigation was tricky as Bearcreek said. The AT is not generally a good comparison to the AT which is what I think Burger was relating with the Pmags link. All your questions other than the "where to safely store a car?" you should be able to ascertain yourself when reviewing Ley's CDT map set for those segments IF you are prepared.

If you're ending your hike in Lima go the bar/steakhouse for post hike cook it yourself steak, chicken, etc. and an icy cold one. It's a VERY small town.

Like the Centennial Range. It's remote hiking, NOTHING like the AT. Idaho's Centennial Trail is on my Top 5 next thru-hikes to experience.

[Dogwood]

So when people who have hiked the CDT through this area hear you referring to "the trail" or "the CDT" as if this is it, here is where the trail is, as if it's an absolute one route for all as the AT has become, while asking the quality of the questions you are it makes it seem you haven't looked at maps yet, done much CDT research, aren't familiar with CDT logistics, expecting established CS's, etc. There are FAR more comprehensive sources that note answers to your questions than asking these questions here.

[ARambler]

...

My only big concerns at this point are water and navigation. I don't use GPS (don't believe in it for hiking). And I've used a compass and topo map only sparingly. I'm well aware of the differences between AT and CDT. But, like I said, I'm in preparation mode now, which is why I'm here (thanks for the link you provided).

So, you ask about Navigation, and using a gps, is an unacceptable answer and becoming proficient in navigation, is an unacceptable answer. How about: Update your Will and don't worry about navigation?

I don't know why Dogwood feels his outdated information on trail quality is useful. They are making many improvements to the Centennial route. It gets a lot of bad press by those who want to justify the much shorter Macks Inn alternative.

I think it would be difficult for you to hike from Lima to West Yellowstone without resupply. You should ask the owner of the RV Park/ Motel in Lima what shuttles are available in the area.

[bamboo bob]

[QUOTE

I don't know why Dogwood feels his outdated information on trail quality is useful. They are making many improvements to the Centennial route. It gets a lot of bad press by those who want to justify the much shorter Macks Inn alternative."

I haven't completed the CDT. But from the Mexican border to Cottonwood Pass in Colorado I think the trail is well marked , easy to follow, and pretty easy hiking compared to the Northern AT for instance. The CDT difficulty has to do with long hitches and logistics. It's complex to do in sections. AND to your point there has been a tremendous amount of trail work each year. So if you get advice about the CDT talk to people who have hiked in the last three years.

[10-K]

A GPS on the CDT is a mighty handy thing to have. When you're walking across open country with no discernable trail there's a certain comfort in knowing you're going the right way. Don't dismiss the idea out of hand.

I've only hiked a chunk of it but it'll make you pay attention. You can be hiking-hiking-hiking on good tread and see a little side trail go off on one side... often as not that little side trail might be the CDT. It took me a few bonus miles to break that habit.

[Dogwood]

So, you ask about Navigation, and using a gps, is an unacceptable answer and becoming proficient in navigation, is an unacceptable answer. How about: Update your Will and don't worry about navigation?

I don't know why Dogwood feels his outdated information on trail quality is useful. They are making many improvements to the Centennial route. It gets a lot of bad press by those who want to justify the much shorter Macks Inn alternative.

I think it would be difficult for you to hike from Lima to West Yellowstone without resupply. You should ask the owner of the RV Park/ Motel in Lima what shuttles are available in the area.

WOW, didn't know 4-5 yr old info is that outdated. I gave those dates to put into context perhaps trail improvements. As said, "there are FAR more comprehensive sources that note answers to your questions than asking these questions here." This may include my info that should always be checked too.

FWIW, I've done the Macks Inn route as well as the round about common West Yellowstone route(both on the same CDT SOBO 2010 thru-hike) and a variation on the West Yellowstone route(2012) detailed somewhat by Wolf. I've looked at trail routing comparisons on Ley's 2009-2011 and 2014 CDT map sets for this segment which you made me just pull out and review. There's not a whole lot of differences in this segment during those yrs. Maybe I shouldn't say anything about comparisons or logistical considerations on each because you feel there is nothing worthwhile that can be gleaned from these comparisons? Maybe, you can list many others who've experienced all these routes? If so, please share these people and beta. I question anyone saying 4-5 yr old CDT info as far as logistics is thoroughly outdated.

FWIW, these segments have water logistical and/or repeated trail fire issues.

I agree though ARambler many CDTers, those of the get er dun thru-hiking mindset, taking the shorter Macks Inn Route often justify that option, at least in yrs past, by negatively complaining about some aspect of the longer West Yellowstone alternative. I also agree the Macks Inn Route is hot(particular in Aug and early Sept when I've gone through), is mostly on FS roads, and has H2O issues as well as is scenically less embracing IMO. This is the same crowd that will find something negative to complain about to justify taking the Anaconda cutoff, or not taking the Helena route, RMNP up to Flattop Mt, etc.

[Dogwood]

BTW, Rambler I still have our correspondence concerning the assistance you gave me concerning various CDT questions in 2009. That was most appreciated.

[10-K]

I agree though ARambler many CDTers, those of the get er dun thru-hiking mindset, taking the shorter Macks Inn Route often justify that option, at least in yrs past, by negatively complaining about some aspect of the longer West Yellowstone alternative. I also agree the Macks Inn Route is hot(particular in Aug and early Sept when I've gone through), is mostly on FS roads, and has H2O issues as well as is scenically less embracing IMO. This is the same crowd that will find something negative to complain about to justify taking the Anaconda cutoff, or not taking the Helena route, RMNP up to Flattop Mt, etc.

I have to confess I stood at the at the Anaconda cutoff junction for several minutes contemplating... started that way, then turned around and stuck with the CDT and hiked the new trail around Butte which was pretty cool.

[greenpete]

So when people who have hiked the CDT through this area hear you referring to "the trail" or "the CDT" as if this is it, here is where the trail is, as if it's an absolute one route for all as the AT has become, while asking the quality of the questions you are it makes it seem you haven't looked at maps yet, done much CDT research, aren't familiar with CDT logistics, expecting established CS's, etc. There are FAR more comprehensive sources that note answers to your questions than asking these questions here.

I don't claim to be an expert on the CDT, but whiteblaze.net is not the first and only source I've looked at. I use this site because I've received helpful advice here in the past. Also, Bamboo Bob is correct, there have been extensive improvements made on the trail in the last few years (Is it ok to call it "trail"? If not, then what?). I'm a proud member of Montana Wilderness Association, and I've been privy to the updates. Yes, there are still sections that haven't been blazed (and maybe we should keep it that way). I've already researched where those sections are located. I'm looking for a more challenging hike than the AT provides, which is why I plan to do this section. As far as GPS goes, I'm sure it IS very handy on the CDT (Is it ok to call it CDT?). But if you're a hiker that requires a GPS, on the CDT or elsewhere, you probably shouldn't be hiking.

[ARambler]

I have to confess I stood at the at the Anaconda cutoff junction for several minutes contemplating... started that way, then turned around and stuck with the CDT and hiked the new trail around Butte which was pretty cool.

I didn't have a problem with Dogwoods description other than to emphasize his more recent post was not the most recent trail data which is often important for the CDT.
For example, in 2008, the route around Butte had a lot of road walking, tricky navigation (the Ley route was not correct) and some undesirable bushwacking near the south end. In, 2008, there was a lot less bushwacking and navigation problems (but I knew the issues). Last year, had major very well graded new trail. There was a short section on the south side of Bushy Mountain that was beginning to overgrow, and it was nice to have a gps track. So, I like the Butte route all 3 years, but there are significant differences each year.

[Dogwood]

Few of us actually hike this lovely section. Last year, I followed Bearcreek's gps track and it was pretty good tread compared to previous years. My 2008 entry in the Lima log book says south to Yellowstone is tricky water sources. You go past great water every 3 miles and then go up on a ridge for 20+ very dry miles. You can easily carry too much or too little water. It is not a big problem if you follow the Guthook or Leys gps maps.

Logistics are a much bigger issue on the CDT. There is bus service from Lima to ca Idaho Falls, and bus service from there to West Yellowstone.

Hello burger. Thanks for pitching in. In response to your questions, I only inquired about the altitude changes of the Centennial section of the CDT (and, earlier, about logistics and water sources). So I'm not sure how this makes me unprepared. I'm not hiking for another 4 months, and I'm getting my ducks in line ahead of time, which is why I'm here. Although I've never hiked the CDT, I'm a fairly experienced backpacker and have hiked on exposed ridgelines (including the treacherous White Mountains). I've also hiked out West: day and section hikes in the Cascades and Colorado Rockies. Also, I don't have daily mileage goals. I hike until I'm tired, then find a camp spot. And unlike a lot of AT hikers, I rarely use the shelters, preferring primitive campsites.

My only big concerns at this point are water and navigation. I don't use GPS (don't believe in it for hiking). And I've used a compass and topo map only sparingly. I'm well aware of the differences between AT and CDT. But, like I said, I'm in preparation mode now, which is why I'm here (thanks for the link you provided).

Have not seen Guthook's or all of Bearcreek's CDT maps info but as said I have for Ley's mapset of 4 different yr's versions with the most recent version being from 2012. Some yr's version were 95% identical to the previous yr's version. I'm strongly assuming Beavercreek's maps would be great as what I've seen from him have been well above avg maps. Ley will say things like "this yrs mapset is 98% the same as last yr's map set with few minor changes like in NM." Since Jonathan in all likelihood knows the CDT better than most including far beyond myself I take him at his experience mapping and logistical noteworthy word. What I have liked about Ley's map sets is the updating he regularly commits to, all the alternates, and significantly applicable notes which include beta on water logistics. For example, that 20+ mile, I think it was 24 miles on the West Yellowstone Route was noted going SOBO and NOBO on Ley's maps. Ley also notes some potential or personally experienced CS's. For the work that he has put in over the yrs his CDT map sets are one of the greatest CDT map bargains available IMHO.

Further, looking at Ley's color topos at a 1:60,000 scale reduced from the 1;24,000 scale some things I found a little cramped with loss of fine detail which map and compass navigators like yourself or myself may not like, and as Ley himself suggests, print these maps on 11x17 paper. Makes sense if you are only mailing a few maps at time on a section hike to a resupply location.

How you prefer to navigate is your biz but I will attest I too thought map and compass was always the way to proceed but in some situations I've found GPS a worthy tool to add into the navigational mix so you might not want to make absolute statements that GPS is never handy.

As you peruse the maps you should be able to note potential primitive CS's with no one having to tell you specific CS's, main road access areas in regard to bail out and resupply options, tricky navigational areas, and note potential water sources while combining all these logistical considerations with on the map notes. Piece together a clearer bigger picture by pulling up some larger pic maps on Mapquest, Cal Topo, FS, Wilderness Area, and NP maps.

[10-K]

I think anyone would prefer to have the latest information about a trail if it's available. Who can argue with that?

As for the GPS, it's quite a leap to go from "a GPS is handy" and then say "but if you're a hiker that requires a GPS... .. " in the same sentence.

On the section of the CDT I hiked every day, and sometimes multiple times per day, I'd be on trail and hike into a big meadow - get to the middle of the meadow and the trail would just disappear. I'd walk to the other side of the meadow and there'd be multiple trails going back into the woods.

Now... I can read a map pretty good but I'd rather hike a mile than spend 30 minutes dicking around playing Marco Polo trying to figure out which trail is the trail. I mean if that's something someone finds enjoyable then I'm not one to judge - but it's not my thing.

[Mags]

I have no dog in this fight. I'll just sat that a GPS is merely a tool.

Chris Townsend has what I think is the most fair, thoughtful, and even handed look at GPS, Map, and compass use.
http://www.christownsendoutdoors.com...-in-hills.html

He's done a fair amount of walking.

TL;DR - They all are useful in different ways. A wise backcountry traveler will take and use the tools available. But you still need to know how to use the tools.