How much decline of biological life has there been along the AT over its history?

[greenmtnboy]

I am a fan of early US literature like that of James Fennimore Cooper, "Last of the Mohicans" and other books. The sense that you get from reading the great historical American books is that we have lost a tremendous amount of biological life, animal life, fertility of the ground with attendant health of living things along the Appalachian chain. Sure you see bear, moose, deer, lots of bird life, but nothing like it was in the early 1800s. What percentage of life have we lost in the last 200 years, 100 years, 50 years due to pollution, acid rain, over hunting/killing?

[Bronk]

There is a species of parrots that used to range all over north america that is now extinct...theory being that their habitat was old growth forest and we cut down most of the trees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_parakeet

[Slo-go'en]

I think you got to go back farther then the early 1800's. When you hike the AT, you will see miles and miles of rock walls. This was all once farm land. 90% of Vermont was deforested for sheep. Between clearing land for farms, building materials and fuel, much of the east coast forest was clear cut. Because of this and other reasons, wildlife was decimated. It wasn't until after the Civil war that they finally got to remote areas of NH, ME and NC to clear cut and only because these were the only areas left to "harvest".

[Runner2017]

I am a fan of early US literature like that of James Fennimore Cooper, "Last of the Mohicans" and other books. The sense that you get from reading the great historical American books is that we have lost a tremendous amount of biological life, animal life, fertility of the ground with attendant health of living things along the Appalachian chain. Sure you see bear, moose, deer, lots of bird life, but nothing like it was in the early 1800s. What percentage of life have we lost in the last 200 years, 100 years, 50 years due to pollution, acid rain, over hunting/killing?

About five years ago, from Missouri to Georgia, a squirrel could have hopped from tree to tree without needing to touch ground. That's what I learned in the National Museum of Natural History.

[MuddyWaters]

Mature woods arent that good for wildlife.
the dense canopy blocks out sunlight, theres little substory growth which provides food and cover for many species.


There are more deer in the US today, than ever before, on a tiny fraction of the land, due to this.

We placed bounties on nusiance animals like cougars and hunted them to extinction intentionally.
The loss of the great chestnuts , which defined the appalachians, removed important food source and no doubt changed the distributin of species.
Native americans hunted species to extinction, and extirpated others as well.

99.9% of the species which have ever lived on the earth, have died out, before the rise of mankind too. As good at creating life as the earth is, its just as good at extinguishing it. maybe better.

[Feral Bill]

About five years ago, from Missouri to Georgia, a squirrel could have hopped from tree to tree without needing to touch ground. That's what I learned in the National Museum of Natural History.

Maybe 500?

[Runner2017]

Maybe 500?

yes about five HUNDRED years ago before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

[swjohnsey]

Aren't many animals along the AT and probably never were. Ridgeline don't provide much food.

[DownEaster]

How far back do you want to go? Horses originated in North America about 3.4 million years ago, and spread to Eurasia over the many times the Bering land bridge appeared. When the large human migration to North America from Siberia occurred 11,000+ years ago, they wiped out the horse population. (Admittedly, the evidence here is more coincidental than causal; archaeologists have found only a couple of spear points in horse skeletons in northwest Canada. However, apart from some mysterious horse plague, there isn't another good explanation for why horses went extinct just after large numbers of humans appeared on the scene.)

So, way back when, horses were plentiful in the Great Appalachian Valley (west of the range from Alabama through the Green Mountains). The few wild ponies along the AT are distantly related to the ancient horses which originated on this continent.

[Deadeye]

About five years ago, from Missouri to Georgia, a squirrel could have hopped from tree to tree without needing to touch ground. That's what I learned in the National Museum of Natural History.

5 or 500, either way that squirrel would have needed to be a darn good swimmer to get across the Mississippi!

There are lots of animal species whose populations have waxed and waned with the changing landscape.

[TX Aggie]

Mature woods arent that good for wildlife.
the dense canopy blocks out sunlight, theres little substory growth which provides food and cover for many species.


There are more deer in the US today, than ever before, on a tiny fraction of the land, due to this.

We placed bounties on nusiance animals like cougars and hunted them to extinction intentionally.
The loss of the great chestnuts , which defined the appalachians, removed important food source and no doubt changed the distributin of species.
Native americans hunted species to extinction, and extirpated others as well.

99.9% of the species which have ever lived on the earth, have died out, before the rise of mankind too. As good at creating life as the earth is, its just as good at extinguishing it. maybe better.

Always one realist in the group that doesn't buy into the groupthink.

One problem: cougars are definitely not extinct. In fact, they're starting to spread again.

People think that change that comes from human activity is "bad" but ignore the amount of change that has occurred in the natural record before we arrived. We've been here a blip compared to the history of the earth, and to think we can be more destructive than nature itself is the epitome of arrogance.


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[MuddyWaters]

One problem: cougars are definitely not extinct. In fact, they're starting to spread again.

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The eastern cougar, is a different animal from the western.
No breeding populations are known. The florida panther is a subspecies of eastern cougar.

The eastern cougar was changed from endangered to extinct in 2015. 80 yrs after last official sighting. Most sightings are in error. The few that arent, are escaped or released animals that are western cougars.

I can recall one project in 80s that introduced a population of western cougars into an area in florida to see if they could survive, as a means of expanding the florida panthers range. Radio collared of course. Even with large deer population to prey on, they either starved to death or wandered out of the area in a short time, not being able to adapt to the different terrain and prey.

[TX Aggie]

The eastern cougar, is a different animal from the western.
No breeding populations are known. The florida panther is a subspecies of eastern cougar.

The eastern cougar was changed from endangered to extinct in 2015. 80 yrs after last official sighting. Most sightings are in error. The few that arent, are escaped or released animals that are western cougars.

I can recall one project in 80s that introduced a population of western cougars into an area in florida to see if they could survive, as a means of expanding the florida panthers range. Radio collared of course. Even with large deer population to prey on, they either starved to death or wandered out of the area in a short time, not being able to adapt to the different terrain and prey.

Didn't realize they distinguished between eastern and western.


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[lonehiker]

Didn't realize they distinguished between eastern and western.


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There is no genetic difference between "eastern" and "western" cougars.

[TX Aggie]

There is no genetic difference between "eastern" and "western" cougars.

Guess that's why I never realized there was a difference.

[TexasBob]

In George Washington's time there were elk in the Shenandoah Valley. You could probably have heard them bugle back then from where the AT is in Shenandoah National Park today.

[Traveler]

There is no genetic difference between "eastern" and "western" cougars.

The debate is long and old on that sub-species of cougar which resided in the northeastern US. Most of those involved in this issue believe most of the Eastern cougars were destroyed in the 1800s with human population expansion into their native areas. The last known sightings were in the 1930s, they were eventually put on the endangered species list in 1973.

Suffice to say, the cats formerly known as the Eastern Cougar were pronounced extinct after some 80 years of not having any found in the wild. Their cousins, the Western Cougar are doing well however and occasionally one of those will wander out into the eastern coastal states to see what they can see and cause some excitement when they are seen.

[MuddyWaters]

There is no genetic difference between "eastern" and "western" cougars.

Based on a somewhat questionable single study, reviewed by a total of 1 person.

Which the USFS never accepted. Sticking to a 1946 study that analyzed 8 animals and observed differences. The florida panther has definite observeable differences as well and is still classified as a subspecies of cougar, regardless of if eastern and western are different, or not.

If you want to say all cougars are the same, thats incorrect already based on the florida panther. Which used to roam as far north as TN.

[Slo-go'en]

People think that change that comes from human activity is "bad" but ignore the amount of change that has occurred in the natural record before we arrived. We've been here a blip compared to the history of the earth, and to think we can be more destructive than nature itself is the epitome of arrogance.

I don't know, seems we've done a significant amount of damage in a remarkably short period of time. And then some. Humans have been transforming the landscape and influencing which species thrive (those we find useful) and which that don't (those which were a threat) for many thousands of years.

Once we reached critical mass in the 20th century, we really started to have an impact. We may very well have stopped the onset of the next ice age in it's tracks. As much as an other ice age wouldn't be good for us as a species, neither is cooking the planet. The question none of us will see answered is have we already passed the point of no return and there is nothing we can do to keep from frying, or if we do drastically reduce CO2 and methane from the atmosphere, will this trigger a sudden onset to an ice age?

Either way, in a million years or two, there probably isn't going to be much sign we were ever here.

[SWODaddy]

Mature woods arent that good for wildlife.
the dense canopy blocks out sunlight, theres little substory growth which provides food and cover for many species.


There are more deer in the US today, than ever before, on a tiny fraction of the land, due to this.

We placed bounties on nusiance animals like cougars and hunted them to extinction intentionally.
The loss of the great chestnuts , which defined the appalachians, removed important food source and no doubt changed the distributin of species.
Native americans hunted species to extinction, and extirpated others as well.

99.9% of the species which have ever lived on the earth, have died out, before the rise of mankind too. As good at creating life as the earth is, its just as good at extinguishing it. maybe better.

This. I'll add, it's the temerity of man to assume that a forest has some natural/end state. Forests are always in a state of flux.