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  1. #81
    Registered User egilbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    much like my example of the family of 5 at the hemlocks, it as you say, disregards the shelter capacity. to me, both are examples of an attitude which basically says "i got here first so as much of this, up to and including all of it, is now mine."

    thats the problem with just saying "first come, first serve."
    first come, first served does not grant exclusive rights to more than your fair share, which is the width of your sleeping pad. Any more than that and one is a shelter troll.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by egilbe View Post
    first come, first served does not grant exclusive rights to more than your fair share, which is the width of your sleeping pad. Any more than that and one is a shelter troll.
    i know that.

    some don't. or they dont care. rules explaining that explicitly might have some impact on those who are simply ignorant and would do the right thing if they werent.

    but any attempt at any sort of rule making or discussion in regards to who can use a shelter and how seems to always be met with hostility by a certain segment of the hiking populous who just spouts "first come, first served!"

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterQ View Post
    Rain and bugs are usually an either/or proposition, no?
    the main reason why i just went with the theory he was being sarcastic.

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by egilbe View Post
    first come, first served does not grant exclusive rights to more than your fair share, which is the width of your sleeping pad. Any more than that and one is a shelter troll.
    If you cant show this written in a regulation.....then its just made up.

    Yeah, it would be common sense and consideration for others, but a rule....its not. And not everyone has consideration for others. Like when people hiking together commandeer a shelter by spacing themselves apart, strangers are reluctant to get between friends

    Some scatter their gear around them, taking up space a perdon could, hoping no one askd to move it. Lots try to save space for friends with little tricks
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 07-19-2017 at 09:09.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    If you cant show this written in a regulation.....then its just made up.

    Yeah, it would be common sense and consideration for others, but a rule....its not. And not everyone has consideration for others. Like when people hiking together commandeer a shelter by spacing themselves apart, strangers are reluctant to get between friends

    Some scatter their gear around them, taking up space a perdon could, hoping no one askd to move it
    which is exactly why there should be, and in some places are, rules about this.

    why so many people, who i assume dont act in this manner to begin with anyway, act so hostile to that notion i don't know.

    maybe it is because they assume everyone is as courteous as they are, but i have a hard time imagining that any experienced backpacker has never once ran across someone, in some way hogging or otherwise doing something obviously inappropriate in or with one of the shelters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    which is exactly why there should be, and in some places are, rules about this.
    .
    Or maybe.....its why there should be less expectations for shelters

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Or maybe.....its why there should be less expectations for shelters
    what is your issue with their being rules? you wish to allow inconsiderate people to continue being inconsiderate?

    aside from the difficulty of enforcing them, why be against the notion of their existence? in the few places where they do exist almost everyone, despite the fact that they themselves probably never violate them, think theyre dumb and should not exist. why?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore View Post
    Common sense tells me that weekenders will be using a shelter for one night out of seven and probably are limited to weekends due to their work schedules. Thrus are out for a 4 - 6 month long vacation and have the opportunity to use them the other 6. Despite what some may tell you, there is no special status granted by virtue hike length. The fact is that everyone does have equal claim to shelters, so if a thru gets upset to find a shelter full of weekenders, they are welcome to go pout in their tent. Luckily, I've found this this entitled attitude to be rare.
    Actually thru hikers are unquestionably given preferential treatment, as they should be. Local, state and federal law encodes this favoritism, depending on the location, but most notably they can camp where others can not. Also it is in society in general, the trail magic is for the thru hikers, others may glom some, but if there were no thru hikers there would be no such trail magic, it's because and for the thru hikers. So the argument that trail magic should be for any hiker and not exclusive for thrus just doesn't hold any weight, as without thrus there is no trail magic in it's common form along the AT. And they deserve it, They are doing something wonderful, something few people dare to do, but so needed in society - to leave it for a long time to pursue their dreams.

    Weekenders are more of the vacationing problem, thru hikers are experiencing live, not escaping it.

    As for the shelters, the thrus will get the nod and people who violate this will be looked down upon if they take it with a self righteous attitude. It's unofficial, but karmically correct, a show of respect.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    Actually thru hikers are unquestionably given preferential treatment, as they should be. Local, state and federal law encodes this favoritism, depending on the location, but most notably they can camp where others can not. Also it is in society in general, the trail magic is for the thru hikers, others may glom some, but if there were no thru hikers there would be no such trail magic, it's because and for the thru hikers. So the argument that trail magic should be for any hiker and not exclusive for thrus just doesn't hold any weight, as without thrus there is no trail magic in it's common form along the AT. And they deserve it, They are doing something wonderful, something few people dare to do, but so needed in society - to leave it for a long time to pursue their dreams.

    Weekenders are more of the vacationing problem, thru hikers are experiencing live, not escaping it.

    As for the shelters, the thrus will get the nod and people who violate this will be looked down upon if they take it with a self righteous attitude. It's unofficial, but karmically correct, a show of respect.
    well, no one can say there havent been some.... fascinating... posts in this thread.

  10. #90

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    I've had people chase me down and force Trail magic on me during a section hike.

    (It was chocolate and I'm allergic).

    I gave up and and just took it.

    They obviously didn't care that I wasn't on a through hike.

    That said, groups grabbing shelters, people taking three spots each and pushing others out into the sleet and other bad behavior does call for some better social norming.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    Actually thru hikers are unquestionably given preferential treatment, as they should be. Local, state and federal law encodes this favoritism, depending on the location, but most notably they can camp where others can not. Also it is in society in general, the trail magic is for the thru hikers, others may glom some, but if there were no thru hikers there would be no such trail magic, it's because and for the thru hikers. So the argument that trail magic should be for any hiker and not exclusive for thrus just doesn't hold any weight, as without thrus there is no trail magic in it's common form along the AT. And they deserve it, They are doing something wonderful, something few people dare to do, but so needed in society - to leave it for a long time to pursue their dreams.

    Weekenders are more of the vacationing problem, thru hikers are experiencing live, not escaping it.

    As for the shelters, the thrus will get the nod and people who violate this will be looked down upon if they take it with a self righteous attitude. It's unofficial, but karmically correct, a show of respect.
    Well aren't you special, bless your heart.

  12. #92
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    As for the shelters, the thrus will get the nod and people who violate this will be looked down upon if they take it with a self righteous attitude. It's unofficial, but karmically correct, a show of respect.
    I have no experience with crowded shelters in Georgia during the NOBO bubble, but I suspect that many of the people participating in is thread have.

    So a sincere question.

    Putting an individual's unquestionable rights aside, doesn't it make sense for weekenders to find alternative places to camp during the very busiest time of the year?

    Not because they are somehow less important, but rather simply because their circumstances are different -- they will have access to a whole lot a hiking options, right?

    Seems to me that is common sense-- don't add to the problem (crowded shelters) if it doesn't cost you anything.

    I also have no experience with the Three Ridges Trail that gave rise to this thread, but I would think that details matter -- like just how crowded shelters get there when the bubble comes through.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    Actually thru hikers are unquestionably given preferential treatment, as they should be. Local, state and federal law encodes this favoritism, depending on the location, but most notably they can camp where others can not. Also it is in society in general, the trail magic is for the thru hikers, others may glom some, but if there were no thru hikers there would be no such trail magic, it's because and for the thru hikers. So the argument that trail magic should be for any hiker and not exclusive for thrus just doesn't hold any weight, as without thrus there is no trail magic in it's common form along the AT. And they deserve it, They are doing something wonderful, something few people dare to do, but so needed in society - to leave it for a long time to pursue their dreams.

    Weekenders are more of the vacationing problem, thru hikers are experiencing live, not escaping it.

    As for the shelters, the thrus will get the nod and people who violate this will be looked down upon if they take it with a self righteous attitude. It's unofficial, but karmically correct, a show of respect.
    that's funny. and such BS

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    I have no experience with crowded shelters in Georgia during the NOBO bubble, but I suspect that many of the people participating in is thread have.

    So a sincere question.

    Putting an individual's unquestionable rights aside, doesn't it make sense for weekenders to find alternative places to camp during the very busiest time of the year?

    Not because they are somehow less important, but rather simply because their circumstances are different -- they will have access to a whole lot a hiking options, right?

    Seems to me that is common sense-- don't add to the problem (crowded shelters) if it doesn't cost you anything.

    I also have no experience with the Three Ridges Trail that gave rise to this thread, but I would think that details matter -- like just how crowded shelters get there when the bubble comes through.
    to answer your question. no. anything else?

    i will say though it is interesting to me that three ridges was the specific location in reference to which this hike was made.

    why? because three ridges is near SNP, and in SNP you have the regulations i mentioned concerning "hiking through" as opposed to "thru hikers."

    i am now more convinced this is the source of the confusion.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    what is your issue with their being rules? you wish to allow inconsiderate people to continue being inconsiderate?

    aside from the difficulty of enforcing them, why be against the notion of their existence? in the few places where they do exist almost everyone, despite the fact that they themselves probably never violate them, think theyre dumb and should not exist. why?
    Some things are worth rules
    Some things aint

  16. #96

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    I suppose it is worth mentioning that some, perhaps many, shelters were built before there was such a thing as a thru hiker, let alone large numbers of them.
    "It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Bill View Post
    I suppose it is worth mentioning that some, perhaps many, shelters were built before there was such a thing as a thru hiker, let alone large numbers of them.
    It could also be mentioned that when the trail was built it was intended for section hiking and shorter term use, the idea of thru hiking was never considered a factor. It always was and still is simply a footpath for those seeking fellowship with the wilderness.
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

  18. #98

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    Are shelters really worth fighting over? I'm still new at this but have done nearly 300 miles on the AT this summer. Still have never slept in a shelter but have visited quite a few at this point. They can be really nasty places. The inside of my tent is a vastly more upscale environment. I have eaten lunch at shelters a few times and they are always buzzing with bees or flies. Both insects and rodents are looking for food scraps, including the food you are currently eating. The smells around shelters are that of burnt fire mixed with food. I can't even imagine adding a bunch of smelly hikers with all their food packages getting opened up.

    Give me a nice flat piece of ground any day over a shelter.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeGoldRush View Post
    Are shelters really worth fighting over? I'm still new at this but have done nearly 300 miles on the AT this summer. Still have never slept in a shelter but have visited quite a few at this point. They can be really nasty places. The inside of my tent is a vastly more upscale environment. I have eaten lunch at shelters a few times and they are always buzzing with bees or flies. Both insects and rodents are looking for food scraps, including the food you are currently eating. The smells around shelters are that of burnt fire mixed with food. I can't even imagine adding a bunch of smelly hikers with all their food packages getting opened up.

    Give me a nice flat piece of ground any day over a shelter.
    1500 miles done here, mostly sleeping in shelters, and i've never been at THAT one.

    how does one burn fire?

  20. #100
    Registered User soilman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    I have no experience with crowded shelters in Georgia during the NOBO bubble, but I suspect that many of the people participating in is thread have.

    So a sincere question.

    Putting an individual's unquestionable rights aside, doesn't it make sense for weekenders to find alternative places to camp during the very busiest time of the year?

    Not because they are somehow less important, but rather simply because their circumstances are different -- they will have access to a whole lot a hiking options, right?

    Seems to me that is common sense-- don't add to the problem (crowded shelters) if it doesn't cost you anything.

    I also have no experience with the Three Ridges Trail that gave rise to this thread, but I would think that details matter -- like just how crowded shelters get there when the bubble comes through.
    On my second day of my NOBO I stopped at Gooch Gap shelter to eat lunch and get out of the rain. When I arrived the shelter was near capacity with NOBO's who apparently didn't hike in the rain. They asked me if I passed the boy scouts. I hadn't but a short time later about 20 scouts and 5 or 6 leaders came up to the shelter looking for space. They were quickly told the shelter was at capacity. I hiked on to Gooch Gap to tent. I didn't want to be around that. In this case I think it was irresponsible for the leaders to expect shelter space during the height of thru hiking season. Plus their group was too large. I ran into several large boy scout troops in GA. As an aside, the only shelter I slept in in GA was Stover Creek because it was my first night, it was fairly new, large and basically empty.
    More walking, less talking.

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