Using free standing tent in the Whites

[Slo-go'en]

Here's plan "B". Hike up to the Perch on Saturday. From there you can go directly to Edmonds Col and take 2-3 hours off the time to hike to Nauman vs the Valley Way tent site.

Given the time of year, this would be a prudent thing to do. Surely it's worth the $10 for the convenience, if the caretaker comes around to collect. Plus there will be brand new tent platforms there.
The best way to get to the Perch from the road is to take Lowes Path to Randolph Path, and then jog over to the Perch. Budget at least 4 hours to get to the Perch. There's one long, steep climb involved on Lowes which I nick name "the killer half mile". The Lowes path trail head is across the street from Lowe's Gas station, about 3 miles west of the Appalachia parking lot - the one with cars parked 1/4 mile along the side of the highway.


The Israel ridge trail looks shorter and more direct (and it is), but it's a black diamond in terms of difficulty. There are a couple of tricky stream crossings on the Israel Ridge to make it more exciting and you may encounter high water.

Hum, if your heading up on a Saturday and the weather is nice, there will be a lot of people at these campsites on Sat night.

[williamgymnst]

Yes. All great points. I am planning on renting a car and driving from Portland to Gorham. Saving enough on not paying for my flight to make renting a car doable. I figure it will allow me to bring a lot of gear and decide last minute what I actually need to pack last minute. I will plan to do Valley Way the first day and go to Nauman the second. I am in good shape. I've hiked all of the AT in GA and a lot in the Smokies. I am generally athletic other than that and keep very on top of my fitness. All of this is, of course, weather permitting, but I feel like I could do VW to Nauman without a an exorbitant problem. It will be tough, but I can do it. Just hope the weather favors me because I've been wanting a Presi for a while!!!

[williamgymnst]

Also, since I will need to watch the weather very closely leading up to the trip, does anyone have a favorite weather site they trust? I've been tracking on mountain-forecast.com, but would love a local's preference.

[egilbe]

https://www.mountwashington.org/

higher summit forecasts. Look at that site the day you climb, but even then, there is a chance it will be wrong. The weather is very unpredictable up there. It can change within a few hours of the forecast. Madison Spring hut closes around the beginning of October so you wont be able to get an up to date forecast. The rangers do post a weather forecast at the kiosk at Appalachia, but you may not see it before its updated. Plan bail out routes along your main route and know what you are going to do at any point along the trail. Expect ice and snow at elevation. Bring mittens.

[Slo-go'en]

A forecast is not posted at Appalachia, but you'll have cell service there. The obs peaks forecast spans 3 days and is typically pretty close to what will happen. A more regional 7 to 10 day forecast can be gotten from the local TV station's web site, wmur.com That can show you what's coming in the near future, but maybe not exactly when. The forecast is geared for the southern end of the state, but they do give the north country some coverage. At least you'd know if something nasty is headed this way.

Knowing what to expect and being out in it can be two different things. The ideal time is the day after a cold front passes through. By then the winds have mostly died down, the air is clear and the temps crisp. If you can't hit the day after, usually you still have another day or two before the next front blows through. At most, the best one can expect to get is three decent days in a row and one of those might be marginal.

I have a feeling it will be an early fall this year. Some trees are already changing colors and there is a definite feel and look of fall in the air. We didn't get this type of weather until well into September last year and it stayed nice well into October. The first snow often comes the last week of Sept or first week of October and I bet it does this year. Having microspikes could save your life or be useless extra weight.

I hope you happen to hit a good weather window and have a spectacular hike. It really is a toss of the dice.

[peakbagger]

I use the Eye on the Sky Forecast from the Fairbanks Museum in Vermont. The weather generally come from the west and tends to be more reflective of the local weather compared to the NH and Maine forecasts that tend to cover the high population coastal areas. If there is split forecast on the Eye on the Sky forecast it usually is broken up by north or south of route 2 or will have a specific Northeast Kingdom forecast. You want the north of Route 2 forecast.

[Slo-go'en]

The Vermont TV station weather forecast (WCAX) does often better reflect what we're getting soon in Northern NH. BTW, here's what the parking lot at Appalachia looks like on a typical Saturday afternoon (like today) The cars are lined up at least 1/4 mile along the highway either side of the parking lot, which can hold 40 cars. A nice weekend in October will equal or exceed this.

SAM_3233.JPG

[egilbe]

The Vermont TV station weather forecast (WCAX) does often better reflect what we're getting soon in Northern NH. BTW, here's what the parking lot at Appalachia looks like on a typical Saturday afternoon (like today) The cars are lined up at least 1/4 mile along the highway either side of the parking lot, which can hold 40 cars. A nice weekend in October will equal or exceed this.

J

Thats not too bad. I've seen it on both sides of the road.

I was surprised at the number of people parking on Tripoli rd after we hiked Osceola today. Crazy up there on nice days

[kf1wv]

Thats not too bad. I've seen it on both sides of the road.

I was surprised at the number of people parking on Tripoli rd after we hiked Osceola today. Crazy up there on nice days

I live in Waterville Valley and was walking in the Livermore TH area yesterday morning. I chuckled at the number of cars with out-of-state plates having trouble even locating the parking lot. Hope their occupants had an easier time following the trails. The Osceola TH parking lot is very small and overflows early on most mornings.

[egilbe]

I live in Waterville Valley and was walking in the Livermore TH area yesterday morning. I chuckled at the number of cars with out-of-state plates having trouble even locating the parling lot. Hope their occupants had an easier time following the trails. The Osceola TH parking lot is very small and overflows early on most mornings.

Most parking lots of the 4000 footers seem to be full within an hour of sunrise. Part of the reason I wake at 4:30 am and plan to be on the road by 5:30 am. Less traffic on the way there, but I hit it on the way out.

[Slo-go'en]

4000 footers get the much of the traffic, but I've been on a lot of out of the way places this summer and have always meet quite a few others on these trails. Doesn't seem to matter where you go these days. If there is a view to be had, people will be climbing up to it.

[Pinnah]

Couple of thoughts...

I treat above treeline as having potential for full winter conditions in the northern Presis. The classic sucker punch is climbing up from the north or west with the wind at your back and being blinded by 50mph snow on the descent.

Trips this time of year have greater hypothermia potential than mid winter trips as 35f and steady rain are not uncommon conditions for the ascent/descent. This time of year will test clothing systems.

I really prefer the huts (Crag and Grey Knob) to the tent platforms this time of year. Clothing is heavier. Crag is amazing.

If weather won't permit going above treeline, the RMC trails are worth exploring. The Cliffway Loop is stellar. A trip to the floor of King Ravine is well worth it. I would avoid Great Gully and King Tavine headwall unless weather is perfect.

Some picture of the Crag, Grey Knob and Log Cabin here. The moss is on Cliffway.

If weather is spotty and you want to go above treeline, ascending Lowe's and descending Spur is often doable. Spur is more protected. Just don't follow the wrong cairn line down Great Gully. It's an easy mistake. Ascending Spur and descending Airline or Valley Way is also possible as the wind tends to be behind you.

Here is a 3 night trip that can be safely adjusted on the fly according to weather.

Park at Appalachia.
Day 1: Ascend to Perch via Randolph Path. Possible side trip to Emerald Bluff.

Day 2: Summit Jefferson. Descend to Grey Knob via several routes.

Day 3: Summit Adams. Descend to Crag.

Day 4: Ascend to Thunderstorm Jct, traverse to Madison Hut (closed). Bag Madison and descend via Airline or Valley Path. Don't descend via Watson Path. Trust me.

[Pinnah]

Pictures here
https://flickr.com/photos/[email protected]

[williamgymnst]

Thanks again to everyone for the great advice on weather and route planning! It's always great to see how willing people are to help others. I will keep all of your advice in mind and keep my plans open to any alteration. At this point, I will definitely be making the trip from Georgia to the Whites. Hopefully, the weather will work out so that I can sneak in a full traverse. However, I will definitely change my plans if needed and am much less committed to a traverse given the weather considerations.
I welcome all advice, planning considerations, and route ideas. Keep 'em coming if you got 'em!!

[williamgymnst]

Slightly different question. Given the variability of weather and the fact that most of my hiking is done in the Blue Ridge and Smoky Mountains, does anyone have any favorite layering combinations/setups that serve them well in this season and environment?

[Pinnah]

Here is my clothing list for fall/spring trips in the Whites.

Sub-bullets represent alternatives to the primary choice, based on expected conditions. This is copied from my actual packing list file, so some of the names may be non-sense to you. I can clarify if needed.

Note, I strongly prefer pile to fleece in cold rainy conditions.

----
TRAIL CLOTHING - Worn
-----
Altimeter watch
Med wt Poly T-shirt (0.7)
- Med wt poly t-neck (0.9)
Fleece shirt (0.8)
- Cream Pile Sweater (0.18)
DriClime Windshirt (0.11)

Guide pants (1.4)
Black liner shorts (0.4)
- Med wt tights (blue) (0.7)
Bandana
Knee brace

Liner socks
Heavy socks
Pick 1 based on snow depth:
+ Light boots
+ Heavy boots
Pick 1 based on snow depth:
+ Short gaitors
+ Tall gaiters

Pick 1 based on temp:
+ Cotton cycling hat
+ Duckbill fleece hat
+ Plaid wool baseball hat

Wool gloves
Shell gloves



-----
TRAIL CLOTHING - PACK
Assumes all of this will get wet.
Packed summit pack or stuff sack.
-----
Outdoor Products pack (0.4)
- Black stuff sack (0.2)
- EMS pack (0.12)

Free Tech Sweater (0.15)
- Pile Sweater (0.16 for rain)
- Primaloft Sweater (1.14)

Rain jacket (0.15)
Rain pants (0.8)
- Lined Side-zip Pants (1.5)


-----
OVERNIGHT CLOTHING - PACK
assumes this will stay dry
Stuff sack
-----
Med wt Poly T-Neck (0.9)
Med wt tights (blue) (0.7)
- Exp wt tights (0.10)

Balaclava
Spare wool gloves
Spare liner socks
Spare heavy socks

[egilbe]

150 wt Merino wool t-shirt from Icebreaker
long sleeve nylon button down shirt from Eddie Bauer
hooded stretch fleece pullover from Ragged Mountain Equipment
Hooded Super Stratus Down Puffy from Sierra Designs.
TNF Nylon zip off hiking pants
Marmot Precip Rain Jacket
Patagucci cap 2 base layer bottoms (sleeping)
Cap 4 hoody (sleeping)
LL Bean wool fuffy boot socks (sleeping)
2 pairs Darn tough cushioned hiker socks
Salomon XD Pro 3 hiking shoes
dirty girl gaiters
Minus 33 Ridge cff beanie
Rab fleece glove liners
OR fleece windbloc mittens

if it gets much colder than 30 degrees, I'll swap out my nylon pants for my OR fleece tights and bring my LLBean polartec rain pants. If it gets down into the teens or single numbers, I'll add lightweight wool baselayer to my fleece tights and long sleeve wool base layer to my upper matched with an R1 hoody while I'm hiking. Much below zero, its another layer of fleece, balaclava, goggles, mittens and a windshell. At least until I warm up. At those temps, its more about managing layers and energy output to prevent sweating.

Hiking warms you up, but the cold is lethal. If you stop moving, you cool off faster than you dry out and hypothermia sets in. Extra warm/dry layers to put on is necessary for survival.

For three season hiking, anything down to staying warm in the 20's is good. Winter is a different animal.

[jofjltncb6]

You are 100% correct, of course.

That said, that particular brochure is flawed in that on a casual raeding it conflates recommended LNT practices, with the summaries of the "Supervisor's Orders" which have the force of law.

Why is this important?

It may not be for most, given the actual Supervisor's Orders are many, and the practical considerations of camping in the Whites can make the designated sites VERY attractive.

On the other hand, if you pass a fellow hiker who has pitched his tent below treeline and well away from a man-made structure or road which is outside of a Wilderness area, don't be too quick to assume he is camping illegally-- even if his camp is just a few feet from the Trail.

In point of fact, there are a whole bunch a places along the AT where you can camp off-trail legally, just as there are plenty you can't -- or wouldn't want to even if you could.

Did you mean needs to be outside a *Wilderness area* or a *Forest Protection Area*? Because I'm pretty sure backcountry camping in Wilderness areas is not necessarily illegal.

(Note that I'm not saying it is "preferred" or even "advisable", just "legal".)