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  1. #101
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    My "smell test" is beginning to detect a whiff of.......

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareBear View Post
    My "smell test" is beginning to detect a whiff of.......
    I know who I'd put on it.

  3. #103

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    Really, while there may only be 5 of us who care, the Bean should kick down and provide the basics. Said it before will say it again this website is better than cable.

  4. #104

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    Would be very interesting to start crowd sourcing some trail sightings of SB.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalebJ View Post
    Would be very interesting to start crowd sourcing some trail sightings of SB.
    We don't have a picture, but we believe we saw him in the HMW. Would have to spend some time studying AWOL to pinpoint the approximate location and date.

    We were picking our way along through a low area with a lot of rocks on the trail. As he approached from behind, I pointed to a bit of swampy muck to the right of the trail, and said "there's some water if you need any." He laughed and said something about the flavor, then went on by and quickly left us behind. We commented that he was carrying poles in his hand and drinking from a bottle all while rapidly navigating the rocks that we were carefully picking our way over. And yet he didn't stumble. My husband noted that he saw some blood on his knees, so maybe he wasn't always so lucky.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbakwin View Post
    I'm disappointed with SB. He told me 9/14 he'd put some things together, but the only thing I ever saw was his daily mile log. I don't think he even posted that publicly, just sent to me. I also don't know if he posted his Spot data publicly. How you spend 46 days walking/running for 12-16 hours / day and then can't spend a couple hours writing up a trip report is beyond me. Well, his Spot data looked pretty solid for as long as I was able to follow it (at some point I got swamped with other stuff and couldn't keep up).
    Quote Originally Posted by ScareBear View Post
    Wait. What?

    Let me see if I've got this all straight. First, let me thank you for your efforts. Second, I thought you vetted SB's effort and declared it a "win"? Are you saying you did this based on an easily fabricated daily mile log and SPOT data that "looked pretty solid as long as I was able to follow it"????????? You've never seen ALL of his SPOT data? You've never matched his SPOT data with his mileage log, his journal, his photos, sightings, resupplies.....nothing? He's never submitted any kind of trip report? No daily narrative of any kind? No geotagged photos?

    And he has never made one damn thing public???????

    Have I missed something here? Is there any good reason SB is getting away with declaring himself anything of anything?

    Honestly, after supposedly doing what no human has ever done before, over an arduous as hell 45 days you can't be arsed to provide any proof because you are too busy getting back to the real world
    In fairness to Peter... There is even less fame and fortune in hosting an FKT site than there is doing the FKT itself.
    And while I don't mean to minimize Peter's role... he hosts the website, posts the results (claims) and tries to literally be the record keeper. Not the judge or referee.

    Been a busy and very drama filled season to say the least as well. Now that everyone is off trail, I know I need a deep breath and a break.
    And this is one trail, one FKT.... Peter tracks them all.

    That said:
    Mr. Flashy shorts is my buddy. So I said both privately and publicly that I didn't want to discuss anything with Stringbean until Joey was done.

    As Peter mentioned Stringbean pinky swore his documentation was coming and since his effort appears to be an unsponsored, self-funded record attempt and he had to jet back to work seemed fair enough to give him some time.

    Course Joey was also unsponsored, self funded, and was back to work within a day or so of getting back himself.
    Course Joey hasn't had a dozen plus media interviews, speaking engagements, or other things to rush off to that would slow him down.
    Or more accurately; Joey understands that the hike is not done until you document and prove what you did. Period.

    Here's how Peter would like things to work. (Feel free to contradict me Peter)
    A- People research the FKT they wish to pursue and what is required to do it.
    B- If you somehow are fortunate enough to succeed- then submit all the documentation required to prove your claim. PUBLICLY.
    C-Unless your claim is clearly fraudulent, Peter will recognize your claim on his site if appropriate.
    D-The claim goes uncontested unless a member of the community would like to dispute the claim.

    That's it... Peter documents the claim in a public forum. Then those who care in the community can review the claim if needed.
    If somebody makes a ridiculous statement or claim then it won't get taken seriously. If somebody puts up something bullet-proof then it will be recognized easily.
    Really ain't much different than WB. If I put up a post here about a piece of gear or technique- anyone is free to chime in and support, dismiss, or clarify.

    Eventually a consensus is generally reached and the community more or less agrees.
    Sometimes somebody with specialized knowledge may look in depth at something and settle the debate with cold facts or learned opinion if needed.
    If discussing water purification we might want some actual lab reports and science. If choosing if a Neo-Air Xtherm is a great sleeping pad... we want lots of opinions and field reports.

    If discussing an FKT. We want proof and we want a story.

    If Joey Camps comes out on his third self supported FKT attempt and second on the AT... does more or less what we expected him to do... and slaps down all his documentation in a week or so.
    Well that's probably not much of a debate among the community.

    I'm a bit too close personally to review it fully but I know where his gaps in his GPS were and how Joey got creative and found ways to plug those holes with Strava or video journaling.
    I see his hundreds of photos. I saw how his choice of GPS device caused him several issues that despite ALL the issues that come up on a hike he found a way to deal with. I talked to him when he considered aborting his attempt at Caratunk due to his spot not working on that first stretch. I know how seriously he takes documentation, reporting, and raising the standards.

    I know that Joey once set the fastest unsupported time on the AT.
    I know that Joey could not claim that FKT because he got in a car.
    He knew that and he finished anyway.
    And he accepted that just because he didn't know the rules they still applied. So despite holding the fastest known time, he did not claim the record.

    Most important of all; Joey's personal integrity, honesty, and honor are without question.

    I don't know anything about Stringbean. Seems like a nice enough dude. But so what?
    This is his first self-supported trip.
    He has claimed a time that is over a week faster than the previous record.
    He has claimed the overall fastest time. A time that has been set by Jennifer Pharr Davis, Scott Jurek, and Karl Meltzer who more or less posted times within a dozen hours or so of each other.
    He has claimed to have pulled off something amazing. Despite many issues and reasons not to pull it off.
    There are holes in his track, his insty, and disappearances during some very critical parts.
    There are many things that don't make sense in the context of other trips.
    Joey was also pretty unconventional his first time out, and this is technically SB's first self-supported trip.
    But more or less from Matt to Joey there is a bit of a style that folks inevitably slide into regarding gear, fueling, technique etc.

    I will say this:

    I fully believe that Joey was capable of besting the overall time. IF everything went perfectly. It didn't.
    So I am fully willing to believe that the TIME Stringbean has claimed is possible. Sub 50 is mindblowing enough. 45 days unsupported is Perfection.
    But it clearly did not go perfectly, and it is quite difficult to simply take at face value.

    Nothing personal against Joe. Seems like a decent dude, maybe even a great one. Maybe the best.
    I'm sure Knotts thinks I'm a real Richard cranium. I actually kinda like the dude in my own way.

    Rules for one means rules for all. Period.
    Knotts has turned in more evidence of his claim than Joe, and that evidence proved to be insufficient.
    Joe's claim is quite extraordinary; his evidence should be as well.

    I look forward to hearing more about Stringbean's trip and him eventually shoring up his amazing claim.

    As far as I am concerned:
    Joey Camps currently holds the self supported FKT for the Appalachian Trail.

    Nothing dramatic about it. Joe has a claim he's welcome to prove. Until he does ain't nothing more than a nice hike.

    I'd offer congrats to Joey, but I know he doesn't want it. In fact asked me not to cause any drama.
    I'll say the same thing I said to him. It's got nothing to do with Joey.
    What you get from this is given by the trail and have nothing to do with the clock.

    Rules for one means rules for all. If the FKT means something then it has to be documented.
    Otherwise it's just a race.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post


    As far as I am concerned:
    Joey Camps currently holds the self supported FKT for the Appalachian Trail.

    Nothing dramatic about it. Joe has a claim he's welcome to prove. Until he does ain't nothing more than a nice hike.


    Rules for one means rules for all. If the FKT means something then it has to be documented.
    With the caveat that extensive documentation requirements are relatively new, and some dont think they should have to provide more than X in past, its a reasonable request for timely submittal for a few reasons.

    My opinion, until SB satisfies his peers with documentation, fkt attempters and holders, such as Matt K, Joey, etc, is in alignment with yours. I want to believe, but as time goes on doubts will grow as to at least how unsupported it was.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareBear View Post
    Second, I thought you vetted SB's effort and declared it a "win"?
    You have to understand that Peter doesn't necessarily want or claim this responsibility. Given the scope of his FKT site, it'd be an impossible task. Here's a quote from him last month on one of the forums over there:

    There are hundreds of trips reported on this site, and it is impossible for me personally to "validate" each one, or even look critically and objectively at the data for most of these trips. I rely on "the community" to bring forward these questions & to help clarify them. That's what has happened here. Sometimes it takes time - in this case over a year!
    Interestingly enough, the quote is taken from an ongoing discussion around SB's lack of public documentation and/or adherence to official reroutes in 2014 on the PCT FKT thread:

    http://fastestknowntime.proboards.co...l-ca-wa?page=7

    The last two pages on the thread show how community discussion helps Peter to keep more accurate records of FKT activity on his site... and secondly, that maybe it's best not to hold your breath on SB documentation.

  9. #109

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    I'm going to acknowledge some culpability here. I think I need to re-assess how & when I accredit the FKT to someone. Once your name is up in lights I guess there's no incentive to provide the documentation. I see this with Joe & also recently with Darcy on the JMT. The day after each of these trips I get calls from journalists who want to know if the FKT is legit. I usually say something like "I don't see any reason to doubt it, but don't have all the info. These things take time." Journalists hate this. I'm thinking in future you don't get your name on the FKT site until ALL your info is out & publicly available for anyone to pick apart. It's easier to put your name up than to take it down, because once it's published in OutsideOnline who cares what the "community" says anymore?

  10. #110
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    What classifies as unsupported? Carrying your own pack and supplies the entire length and passing every official marking of the current trail without detour or vehicle? If so then wouldn't swapping packs make that semi supported, not self? Or would the be considered trail magic? I know nothing about the rules for a FKT, nor do I see the point, but that's another story altogether.
    Honest questions, no sarcasm or criticisms intended.
    My evolving gear list, some links provided
    https://www.geargrams.com/list?id=44571

    To each their own, get all the advice you can, then figure out your own path.

  11. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by pbakwin View Post
    I'm going to acknowledge some culpability here. I think I need to re-assess how & when I accredit the FKT to someone. Once your name is up in lights I guess there's no incentive to provide the documentation. I see this with Joe & also recently with Darcy on the JMT. The day after each of these trips I get calls from journalists who want to know if the FKT is legit. I usually say something like "I don't see any reason to doubt it, but don't have all the info. These things take time." Journalists hate this. I'm thinking in future you don't get your name on the FKT site until ALL your info is out & publicly available for anyone to pick apart. It's easier to put your name up than to take it down, because once it's published in OutsideOnline who cares what the "community" says anymore?
    growing pains, it's all good!

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    With the caveat that extensive documentation requirements are relatively new, and some dont think they should have to provide more than X in past, its a reasonable request for timely submittal for a few reasons.

    My opinion, until SB satisfies his peers with documentation, fkt attempters and holders, such as Matt K, Joey, etc, is in alignment with yours. I want to believe, but as time goes on doubts will grow as to at least how unsupported it was.
    While I would agree it's relatively new... in regard to this specific FKT it's only 4 years ago.

    Since Peter provides a frame work for EVERY FKT... he has to speak generally.
    Even by the general standards of documentation though it would be hard to say that anyone is doing much more than making a claim. GPS is no magic bullet nor is social media.
    While the exposure has increased... the actual effort to document the hikes has decreased on these. As much as folks call it a 'handshake' agreement or pretend there were no standards. That is not true at all. A trip report, eyewitnesses, photos, splits, details, etc have always been standard. The only new thing is GPS. Which isn't even needed really when the other items are presented.

    But in this case we are talking specifically about the self-supported FKT on the Appalachian Trail.

    Ward Leonard said he did it in 60.5 days in 1990. While we have since gotten more details and confirmation from his contemporaries- Ward's hike was basically an urban legend until Matt came along and interest was renewed in Ward's accomplishments. But little was really known when Matt set out. Not to Ward bash but given his reputation it was not hard to doubt it happened at all or was even possible.

    In 2013 Matt Kirk set the first modern FKT.
    He laid out specific guidelines, set standards for documentation and transparency. He pioneered this specific FKT in a way that others could follow suit.
    It doesn't discount Ward's effort, but Matt worked exceptionally hard not only to bring an urban myth into reality... but to document it in such a way that it meets or exceeds modern standards.
    Maybe some see it as just a race, but the goal is to raise the bar with each attempt in terms of sharing these experiences. The time is context.

    Given that the number of unverified, undocumented, or outright fraudulent claims equal or exceed the number of valid FKT's at this point I would say his precedent is more relevant than ever.

    So Ward in 1990. Matt Kirk in 2013.

    Since then only two people have met the documentation standards for this specific hike.
    Dan 'Knotts' Binde and Joey 'Flash' Camps
    Even though Dan's claim was not able to be verified, he could still work on shoring it up.
    But credit where credit is due. Dan didn't have to submit documentation and in attempting to do so fell short.
    Whatever Dan's faults- he does respect the trail and the FKT itself.

    I'm not going to bash Anish. I feel fairly confident she did what she said. I like her story personally, it's fine to just be a hiker.
    But it is quite clear that her failure to document her hike has opened a door that did not exist and her efforts as an FKT holder are quite a disappointment.

    Matt laid down a pretty clear path to follow. He still maintains his website, he published a book, he shared all his beta and has helped out any who followed. Including Heather, even tried to get something together for her regarding her GPS. She couldn't even back up that effort with a trip report... which is pretty crappy for someone who spent a good bit of time on social media. You don't have to be an author suitable for publication, but given her ability to write as she does typing up a trip report of any kind wouldn't have been much of a stretch.

    But if she had matched the standard of documentation laid down by her predecessor we wouldn't have had any of the discussions we've been forced to have since. Including this one.

    So no caveat for Joe.
    Nothing new here, nothing complicated.
    This is not his first FKT claim, he didn't show up on a whim.
    Do your research, do your due diligence, and prove what you did.

    Burden of proof is on the claimant. Until that gets enforced then we're stuck with the burden of disproof for every claim. Anyone says they did it, turns in whatever they feel like and waits for someone to call them out.
    That makes for lots of hard feelings and negativity and to be blunt isn't sustainable. I know for a fact that Peter doesn't want to review these. I don't either really. I just want to clean things up and get people on the same page so I can go back to being inspired by them.

    I don't have an FKT, never claimed one. I think I got a decent book. Bill Bryson and Cheryl Straid seem to have done pretty well for themselves without even finishing the trails they walked.
    Dozens of hiking books come out every year about our trails. Skurka doesn't have an FKT, just lots of hard work. Swami, Mags, Lint, Jester; plenty of folks with lots of trail cred and respect out there in our community. You want to tell a story, inspire people, get people out? Go ahead. You want to do something like Jen is doing on the MST... do it. Most of those things are much harder than an FKT, require quite a bit of dedication too.

    If you want to hold an FKT then earn it.
    The reason people dislike FKT's is because they see them as a cheap stunt to get your name out. A way to use the trail for your own gain.
    Score media interviews, earn sponsorship, skip to the head of the line and profit from the trail. Fame and Fortune.

    Not earning an FKT is stealing from the trail in my book.
    And it backs up every negative thing people say about speed hiking in general.

    Doing an FKT on a trail like the AT is not a race. It's something much more and when done right creates harmony with the trail and the community around it.
    I think can be very positive things for the trail as a whole. No more or less than any other hike really. I'm truly inspired by the folks that take decades to finish too.
    This sorta bull**** just pisses people off. That's why I want them cleaned up. I don't care about somebodies personal claim to fame, fortune and notoriety for hiking fast.
    I care about what you're going to do for the trail when you do it and that you don't mess up the place when you pass by.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbakwin View Post
    It's easier to put your name up than to take it down
    In that case, maybe consider editing your statement on the AT FKT page that "Joe "Stringbean" McConaughy brought both the AT record and verification of a self-supported trip to a new level" as verification (at least that which has been timely and public) is lacking. Someone else from this season deserves that recognition.

  14. #114
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    These FKT's are becoming a joke. My money, and trust, is on the accomplished ultra-runners. But I guess even they aren't above it all either, human nature being what it is.

  15. #115
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    So, maybe Peter can do the following:

    "Since SB has failed, entirely, in providing any private or public documentation to support his claim to either AT FKT, that StringBean's claim fails at the moment. This will be re-visited if/when SB provides documentation. Until such time, I hereby declare StringBean's claim to either FKT as UNSUBSTANTIATED, and thus IS NOT VALID AND NOT RECOGNIZED AS ANY FKT."

    Peter could then go on to say "Due to the impeccable documentation and adherence to the strict Anish Standard of Self-Supported FKT, I hereby acknowledge Joey Camps as the undisputed Self-Supported FKT on the AT."

    Because, both statements are factually accurate. StringBean's claim is just that. A wholly unsubstantiated claim. Which, coupled with the incredible times posted, fails to pass the smell test.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScareBear View Post
    ..adherence to the strict Anish Standard of Self-Supported FKT..
    From Anish's post..

    "...collect supply boxes that I have sent to myself. "

    I'm not saying it detracts from Joey at all, but if someone challenges either his or Joe's times in the future it should be set straight that they might have obeyed a slightly modified version of what Anish said in this regard.

  17. #117

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    Admittedly, I'm critical of those who claim FKTs. I had a lot of doubts about both Anish and Knotts' claims in the past, and to be fair to them I have to hold SB's claim to the same standard. So, in my mind, Joey's the man until proven otherwise. Do I think SB did it - Yes, but you can't just claim it now days. You gotta prove it.

  18. #118

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    I don't really get all the hub bub, if you want to be recognized by XXX site, you need to do XXX, and if you don't...you're a no count, pretty simple.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    I don't really get all the hub bub, if you want to be recognized by XXX site, you need to do XXX, and if you don't...you're a no count, pretty simple.
    Spot on.

    Except for the ATC site with regards to 2000-miler recognition, of course.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtmcduffie View Post
    in the future it should be set straight that they might have obeyed a slightly modified version of what Anish said in this regard.
    This could and should be set straight by transparency. In other words, don’t just say what you’ll do; show what you did and how you did it. And if you agree, a gentle reminder: we have more of the former and less of the latter from Anish’s 2017 hike.

    That’s not to say anyone else’s hike is perfect. I’ve had to face the music for some of my actions. The same can be said for Joey. His explanation of why he had a friend mail his (pre-packaged) drops for him seems valid… and he was upfront about this.

    It sure would be convenient to avoid such aforementioned criticism by not showing one’s hand. But what kind of record would that be? Transparency isn’t about convenience. It takes time (but not months!) and effort to get one’s info out there.

    Transparency is what puts the known in fastest known time. And I apologize, but I’ve used up just about all my patience on the unknown at this point.

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