copperheads!

[twinsinpa]

ok so my sister and i were on a day hike in PA on the top of Peters mtn. We were eating lunch on a rock in the sun when we noticed to copperheads sleeping right next to us!!! freaked us out especially after we googled them and realized they were copperheads. so my question is - has anyone been bitten by a venomous snake on the trail? if so what did you do??

[Gambit McCrae]

This is a good topic. I have never heard of anyone getting bit but I know they do. I saw some stats on snake bits. Greatest group of folks getting bit fell in the realm of "young, male, intoxicated" category. I have seen 1 rattlesnake on the AT and he was very calm and non aggressive. The times I fear snakes is when I cant see where my feet are going, overgrown trail, backsides of rocks and logs etc. I take more caution in these stretches.

I also often wonder what to do if bit.
Do I hurry to the nearest road?
Call emergency help and stay put?(if I have service).
Do I calmly walk down the trail till I see someone?

I think I have heard that cutting the bite/ sucking the bite is a hoax.

Found this helpful online:Snake Bite First Aid Procedure

1. Keep the snake bit victim calm, keeping them still and quiet. Restrict movement, and keep the affected area at or below heart level to reduce the flow of venom.
2. Remove any rings or constricting items and clothing as the affected area may swell.
3. Allow the bite to bleed freely for 15 – 30 seconds before cleansing.
4. Create a loose splint to help restrict movement of the area.
5. Contact medical help as soon as possible (see below).
6. Evacuate the victim immediately by hiking to a car, a helicopter, or medical staff.
7. Monitor the person’s vital signs — temperature, pulse, rate of breathing, and blood pressure — if possible. Watch for any signs of shock (sweating, clammy skin, or shallow breathing), since the fear of having been bitten is often more dangerous than the bite.
8. Attempt to identify the snake or, only if can be done safely, bring in the dead snake. Do not waste time hunting for the snake, and do not risk another bite if it is not easy to kill the snake. After it has been killed, a snake can still bite for up to an hour, so be careful while transporting it.

The Six Don’ts

1. Don’t let the allow the victim to engage in strenuous physical activity. If necessary, carry the person to safety. Otherwise, have them hike out slowly without their pack so they are not over-exerted.
2. Don’t apply a tourniquet. Restricting superficial blood flow does keep the venom from spreading, which you want to avoid. Concentrated venom will rapidly destroy cells. Allowing it to spread will dilute the toxin and reduce tissue damage.
3. Don’t apply a cold pack. Cold reduces healthy circulation to the infected area. Also, some experts believe snake venom increases vulnerability to frostbite.
4. Don’t apply a suction device. Removing the venom by suction was once standard procedure, but is no longer considered safe treatment. These devices generally to not remove a substantial amount of toxin and can damage sensitive tissue.
5. Don’t let the snake bite victim eat or drink anything, including medication and alcohol, unless okayed by medical staff.
6. Don’t cut across the bite marks and attempt oral suction. Because snake fangs are curved, the pocket of venom will not be where expected and will probably have already spread. Plus, many snake bites are considered “dry,” where there was no toxin released into the victim. This may also increase the risk of infection in the area by having an open wound.

[hikernutcasey]

I've often pondered what I would do if I was bitten by a venomous snake while hiking. Obviously, a call to 911 if I had signal would be the first thing I would do and follow their directions. However, if that wasn't an option, do I try to make it to the next road crossing to get help or just stay put and hope someone comes along? My rationale would be to calmly walk to the next road crossing trying to keep my heart rate as low as possible. Is that the best thing to do?

[Disco]

Greetings to a fellow CentralPa'ian! I haven't seen a copperhead in the wild ... yet.. but I did see a fat rattlesnake right on the trail near Shippensburg Road. It rattled loudly, but eventually slithered away into the brush. There was a thread started back in May that you may find helpful, and interesting: https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthr...f-snake-bitten

[Tipi Walter]

This conversation keeps coming up over and over again here on WB.(Thanks Disco for the link). I've seen 20+ pit vipers over the last several years of backpacking and they always make for some good trip pics.

Copperheads really blend in at times and in my experience they are docile when compared to agitated and angry rattlesnakes. Here's a few pics of how well these snakes blend in---


Copperhead on the Bald River trail in TN.


Coppermouth on the South Fork Citico trail in camp by tent.

When hiking and backpacking the best way to not get bit is to go slow and look carefully on and around the trail, both while hiking and when stopping for a reststop. Look where you sit. Same in camp. And zip up your tent door at night if you're really paranoid. Tarp camping sukks when you're living in a backcountry full of these guys. BUT NEVER KILL THEM---in fact it's illegal to do so.

[twinsinpa]

Thanks all - we were still 4 miles to our car or probably 2 miles if we went straight down to the road. noone else around. we could call 911 as we had signal and i guess they would have told us what to do next.

we would probably never had even known they were there except that i threw my shoe at a large bug (stupid i know cause my shoe could've went over the cliff - which would've been a whole other issue) and then it ended up right next to the snakes which were right below me like 2 ft where i was sitting on the rock. had i reached down to get my shoe i am pretty sure they would've bit my hand or face while bending over. luckily we saw them before reaching for my shoe.

I will check out that other thread because now i know how close i came to death????? maybe.........

[twinsinpa]

yep - that is exactly what ours looked like!! there were 2 and they were all curled up minding their own business. seemed pretty docile. but freaked me out when i found out they were copperheads! we went back for a pic tho. haha

[devoidapop]

In case of a copperhead bite, I would think the most important thing is remaining calm. You're not going to die from the venom, but you do need medical attention. Do as you would with any serious injury on a hike.

[Tipi Walter]

In case of a copperhead bite, I would think the most important thing is remaining calm. You're not going to die from the venom, but you do need medical attention. Do as you would with any serious injury on a hike.

Knew of a kid who got copperhead bit and later talked to the Nurse and she said they just administered benadryl and waited. Turned out okay. So I pack extra benadryl.

[HooKooDooKu]

Last time I ever saw statistics on the subject, GSMNP indicated that there has never been a recorded instance of someone dying from snake bite in the park.

[gpburdelljr]

Last time I ever saw statistics on the subject, GSMNP indicated that there has never been a recorded instance of someone dying from snake bite in the park.

The following is a quote from a Wikipedia article.

"It has been estimated that 7,000–8,000 people per year receive venomous bites in the United States, and about five of those people die.^[5] Most fatal bites are attributed to the eastern and western diamondback rattlesnake. Copperheads account for more cases of venomous snake bite than any other North American species; however, their venom is the least toxic, so their bite is seldom fatal.^[6]"

[Dan Roper]

As a general rule, copperhead bites are not lethal. The exception would be for the very old, the very young, or somebody in poor health. For the backpacker on the AT who's likely to be in excellent, good or decent condition and ranging in age from their teens to their seventies, mortality is not a real concern. If I was bit by a copperhead, I'd calmly make my way to the closest road or other likely point of contact. I do not think tourniquets are advised for copperhead bites, but check me on that.

Bites by large timber rattlesnakes have the potential to be lethal ...or not. Firstly, bites are very rare (unless you're reading The Yearling by Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings). Second, rattlers sometimes don't inject venom. Third, not every bite is in a location that would be lethal. And the lethality isn't instantaneous, of course. I think (again, check me on this) that use of a tourniquet for a rattlesnake bite can be helpful. If I suffered a bite on the lower leg, hand or arm by a timber rattler, I'd use my belt or shoestring or bear-throw rope to apply a tourniquet, loosening it on occasion. Then I'd make my way calmly to the best and nearest point of contact or egress. Or, if I had a companion, I might have them make that journey while I remained in place. Some people are calm in crisis (phlegmatic) while others are excitable. Dealing with the latter would be more difficult.

A key is for hikers to maintain familiarity with where they are, where they're going, and what the best bailout options are on the way. It's a good idea to go over these details each morning, before a group hits the trail. Sometimes, folks won't listen carefully enough (especially some young folks; especially some young teen males). One adverse experience is usually enough to teach a backpacker to pay attention to these details.

I publish a magazine. Sometimes we have articles that show snakes. When we do, we regularly hear from readers (usually women) that they immediately close the magazine if they see a snake photo. People absolutely freak out over the notion of snakes. That fear, alone, will keep a sizeable portion of the populace from backpacking or hiking. That fear can border on irrational - I'd much rather face the relatively small risk of a rattlesnake than drive on Atlanta's I-285 in a rainstorm.

Last week I came across two 20-something men holding the body of a big timber rattler (4.5 feet). They had decapitated it after finding it on a local dirt road. They were proud of their service to humanity, having no idea that what they did was illegal and unnecessary. Timber rattlers and copperheads are worth our respect and awareness while outdoors. But they are beautiful and necessary components of our ecosystem.

[Tipi Walter]

Last week I came across two 20-something men holding the body of a big timber rattler (4.5 feet). They had decapitated it after finding it on a local dirt road. They were proud of their service to humanity, having no idea that what they did was illegal and unnecessary. Timber rattlers and copperheads are worth our respect and awareness while outdoors. But they are beautiful and necessary components of our ecosystem.

Pit vipers put the wild in wilderness. I equate seeing a big fat rattler on the trail akin to seeing a grizzly bear. Both can kill. I rate snake killers as the lowest level of humanity.

[HooKooDooKu]

I think (again, check me on this) that use of a tourniquet for a rattlesnake bite can be helpful.

From what I can recall (so I too am unsure of the details) from reading wilderness 1st aid guides, I don't think a tourniquet is ever recommended for a snake bite.

A proper tourniquet is designed to completely cut off blood flow, and is needed to prevent blood loss in the event of something like an amputation.

Now if a tourniquet were used, it would be placed between the bite and the heart.
But rather than a tourniquet, a suggestion that I have seen has been to wrap a wide bandage directly over the bite. Think of it as a loose tourniquet... tight enough to help slow the movement of venom from the bite site, but loose enough to still allow blood flow.

[gpburdelljr]

This CDC website

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/snakes/symptoms.html

reccomends the following:
Symptoms and First Aid

Symptoms

Signs or symptoms associated with a snake bite may vary depending on the type of snake, but may include:

• A pair of puncture marks at the wound
• Redness and swelling around the bite
• Severe pain at the site of the bite
• Nausea and vomiting
• Labored breathing (in extreme cases, breathing may stop altogether)
• Disturbed vision
• Increased salivation and sweating
• Numbness or tingling around your face and/or limbs

First Aid

Workers should take the following steps if they are bitten by a snake:

• Seek medical attention as soon as possible (dial 911 or call local Emergency Medical Services.)
• Try to remember the color and shape of the snake, which can help with treatment of the snake bite.
• Keep still and calm. This can slow down the spread of venom.
• Inform your supervisor.
• Apply first aid if you cannot get to the hospital right away.
  
  • Lay or sit down with the bite below the level of the heart.
  • Wash the bite with soap and water.
  • Cover the bite with a clean, dry dressing.

Do NOT do any of the following:

• Do not pick up the snake or try to trap it.
• Do not wait for symptoms to appear if bitten, seek immediate medical attention.
• Do not apply a tourniquet.
• Do not slash the wound with a knife.
• Do not suck out the venom.
• Do not apply ice or immerse the wound in water.
• Do not drink alcohol as a painkiller.
• Do not drink caffeinated beverages.

This website

http://www.workcare.com/wp-content/u...prevention.pdf

recommends the same as the CDC, with the following paragraph about being in a remote area:
"If you are in a remote area without phoneservice or an easy way to reach transportation,the victim should remain as still as possible andwait for the venom to subside. Fear and anxietyincrease heart rate and blood pressure. In mostcases the amount of venom injected is notenough to be fatal. Symptoms may be treatedas they occur."

[4shot]

fwiw, I have seen several rattlers but only 1 copperhead in my decades of outdoor activity. Probably because of the courtesy rattle provided us to let us know of their presence vs. the near invisibility of the copperhead (see Tipi's photos.) OTOH, my dog's vet told me that he treats 10 copperhead bites per 1 rattlesnake bite in our canine companions. The copperheads are out there but they remain (almost) invisible.

also, when I did my NOBO in '10, I met a guy in Va. who was going SOBO. He had attempted a thru the prior year but got off due to a copperhead bite near a water source in Va. He had picked up where he got off. I don't recall the gory details but it made me glad I have never been bit by a poisonous snake.

[Emerson Bigills]

Timber Rattlers and Copperheads are out on the AT. I have seen probably spent close to 6 months total out there and seen only one copperhead and two rattlers. I suspect I have actually been around many more, they just didn't identify themselves.

I have spoken with only one person that actually was bitten by either of them on the AT and that allegedly occurred in central VA with a Copperhead. Many of us have no fondness for venomous snakes, but I no longer spend much time worrying about them when I am out there. I will confess that when I was in proximity to a Timber Rattler, it had my full attention. Give them space and leave them alone. Chances are much greater that ticks and falls will ruin your trip.

[gpburdelljr]

Chances are much greater that ticks and falls will ruin your trip.

7 or 8 thousand people are bitten by venomous snakes every year in the US, with only about 5 of them dying. An estimated 300,000 people are diagnosed with Lyme disease every year in the US.

[moldy]

Like bear attacks, no data is kept about hikers actually bit by snakes on the AT. Too many states too few snake bites. It is exceedingly rare for hikers to get bit. Not all snake bites are reported. Copperhead victims sometimes don't seek medical attention. Eastern Diamondback bites can be deadly. I have been reading Trail Journal.com entries for 10 years and I can't recall even one time a hiker was actually bit. Of the top things killing us out there, other than strokes and heart attacks are Freezing to death, murder, struck by lightening, drowning, falling from high places are all recorded. Snakes....none

[LittleTim]

If you were at the really nice cliff after the power lines on Peters Mountain, there's a few YouTube videos of Timber Rattlers at that same spot too.

Not to derail the thread, but I'm planning out a week long trip to the Black Forrest Trail that has plenty of rattle snakes and no cell phone reception. And I hike solo. What is the tipping point where I should just stay put versus self rescue? 3 miles? Only downhill? Would like to know first hand experience from someone who rode out a venomous bite without medical attention or antivenom.