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  1. #21

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    Interesting experiment Walt. I got what I think was the original neo-air in 2009 and that initial pad has been replaced by them three times so far; every single replacement was at no charge and upgraded to the closest matching current model. Every failure was a pregnancy. The last pad in that chain was the yellow xlite that I still use after a bear stepped on it and punctured it two summers ago (and I patched it with Tear-Aid tape....still holding as of last weekend).

    My winter top pad (that I use on top of the Solar ridge rest these days), developed a small bloat upon the fourth nights use which was extremely disappointing but so far has not gotten bigger.

    Seems there is no perfect solution.

  2. #22
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    The Sea-to-Summit pads are claimed to be delamination free because, according to Sea-to-Summit, they are the only pad manufacturer in the world that exclusively uses fabric that is not a laminant. And, they don't use foam, so there is no potential for foam/glue issues.

    And, for what it's worth, almost all brands of inflatable and self-inflating pads have some level of delamination failure, often pictured in these forums.

    Cascade Designs stands behind their products VERY well. I've been using Thermarest products since 1978 and been exceedingly happy with their quality AND their customer service.
    I'm not lost. I'm exploring.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    Never was happy with self inflators, too much weight for not enough loft. Manual inflating neoair + a inflator (battery or other) is overall lighter and 3x as thick.
    I recently bought an air pad and don't care for it so far. Noisy and just don't care for the bouncy air mattress feel. Need to try it more to give it a fair shake, but I'm thinking of getting another self inflator. I find them more comfortable and less noisy. I gave my oldest thermrest bought in the mid 1990's to my son to use in scouts....It's a 1 inch thick rectangular but I don't know the model....one patch made along the way for a pinhole leak, just a dab of repair cement, and my next one that I bought some time later, a Trail Pro, is a bit heavy, being bigger and thicker...but very comfy. Thinking of trying a "torso" small or maybe Xsmall as a compromise to save weight while maintaining comfort.

    Regarding failures, I figure any elastomeric material will oxidize over time, get more brittle.... adhesives too...... functions of heat, time, contaminates such as sweat, oils, dirt, oxygen, number of stress cycles, .....

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by PatmanTN View Post
    Interesting experiment Walt. I got what I think was the original neo-air in 2009 and that initial pad has been replaced by them three times so far; every single replacement was at no charge and upgraded to the closest matching current model. Every failure was a pregnancy. The last pad in that chain was the yellow xlite that I still use after a bear stepped on it and punctured it two summers ago (and I patched it with Tear-Aid tape....still holding as of last weekend).

    My winter top pad (that I use on top of the Solar ridge rest these days), developed a small bloat upon the fourth nights use which was extremely disappointing but so far has not gotten bigger.

    Seems there is no perfect solution.
    The only solution is to take a Solar ccf pad as mentioned along with an inflatable and when the inflatable inevitably dies the ccf pad can be folded double for 7R if needed. Not as comfy but livable. (My spare mini NeoAir is also in the pack to add a little air comfort with the ccf just in case).

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by blw2 View Post
    . . . Noisy and just don't care for the bouncy air mattress feel. . .
    In recent years there are getting to be some good alternatives that address those two very issues without adding weight and volume.

    I seem to keep coming back to the Sea-to-Summit pads because they are surprisingly comfortable and not bouncy and not noisy compared to most alternatives. Their whole structure and fabric is unique in the industry.

    Also, the less expensive quilted style inflatable pads like the new 2017 REI Flash aren't very bouncy and are made with relatively quieter shell fabric. I think the technology is similar in the Klymit V pads and the Outdoorsman Lab pads?

    The Nemo Tensor is back in the $150 range, like the S2S pads, but is thicker than the S2S and quieter than a Termarest NeoXlite and not as bouncy as many of the thicker and/or longitudinally baffled pads like many Big Agnes pads.


    Of the pads I've used, I like the NeoAir X-Lite except for the noise which really isn't all that bad for me especially on the newer models. I like the S2S except it is a couple oz heavier and not quite as warm. I like the REI Flash et al., but find them not as warm or as robust as the NeoAir X-lite or S2S. I like the BA pads except for their bounciness and the fact that I've had higher valve failure rate on the BA than either the NeoAir or the S2S. Also, the NeoAir X-therm is a fair bit quieter than the X-Lite, quite a bit warmer, and only a couple oz heavier. Finally, although the Nemo Tensor is comfortable like the X-lite and much quieter. But, Nemo's claim of warmth to 20*F in the Tensor insulated model is bull. It's weight is similar to my X-lite but it is not nearly as warm as either my NeoAir X-lite or my S2S, so I don't really have a use for it.
    I'm not lost. I'm exploring.

  6. #26
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    It seems to me that Thermarest has a comfort level with the failure rate of their current designs, materials, and processes.

    TW, might it be reasonable to infer that if there is foam stuck to the cover on the underside of where it bubbled, then it was the foam that failed, and if there isn't any foam stuck, it's the adhesive that gave out?

    nsherry61: I agree, the Klymit Static V is much quieter than the Neoair Xlites. However, I found them up to 4" shorter than advertised when inflated (depending on where along the length you measured, it was 2-4 inches), so mine went back. They were within a half inch of advertised width. Very good value if you're shorter in stature - or don't mind a pad that isn't quite full-length.

  7. #27

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    Often sleep pads can pass down through the generation DNA (does not amplify) that causes rot and decease as the wee nipper pad ages.

  8. #28
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    It seems that the pads more often delaminate in the head/shoulder area than anywhere else.
    I would belive, if the failure was due to mechanical overload/overuse, it would fail in the hip area at least as, if not more often, as the hip area has to bear the same or even heavier load than the shoulder does.

    So either there is some specific design detail we don't know so far (like, bigger/different holes in the foam in this area), or a difference in manufacturing process, like different/unequal glue application, or maybe some chemical/bilogical side effect comes into play.
    This could easily be a kind of mould developing by frequent breath inflation, in addition to hard mechanical wear, both effects coming together exactly at the shoulder area, and finally causing the foam or the glue to break.
    Once a small portion of either is broken, the damage will increase in size after every inflation.
    Its interesting to see on Walter's pics that there is one spot where there is neither foam no glue - most likely this is the spot where the delamination had started.

  9. #29
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    A friend of mine recently had her thermarest (similar to TW's) give birth to a beach ball ... at the foot of the mattress.

    That said, I too suspect an interaction between the glue, foam, and the user's biology ... breath from inflating, sweat, who knows. At first blush, I'd think breath would affect the pad fairly equally, but it's possible more moisture gets trapped more near the valve end ... that while the air gets uniformly distributed, the moisture does not. Certainly the warm moisture would not.

    The other main suspect involves perspiration and/or skin oils from the outside of the pad somehow permeating the outer layer and affecting the adhesive on its underside. I'm not sure how that would work - presumably an airtight pad would also resist allowing water and skin oils to pass through.

  10. #30

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    The Sea to Summit conversation is an interesting one although I haven't gotten around to trying their sleeping pads. Obviously I have Thermarest tattooed onto my brain and can't seem to leave the brand, probably because I've been using Thermarest since June of 1980---$29 for the original! Any pads used for that long are bound to fail.

    I did once leave the fold a couple years ago when I got an Exped downmat for winter backpacking. The warmest pad on the market . . . except . . . Alas Poor Exped---



    Notice the blown baffle seam on this Exped, apparently a common occurence with these pads. Sad thing is, this happened on the first night of a 19 day winter trip into the Snowbird backcountry---Grrrrr!!---so I had to detour 12 miles for a cached Thermarest to continue the trip.

    I'm up for a Sea to Summit experiment and what better place than the backyard camp?

  11. #31
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    In our language we say, "water has a bigger head than air", meaning, if something is waterproof, that doesn't mean its airtight. Look at most plastic bags/bottles: While they hold water perfectly tight, air (at least oxygene) does seep through.
    I'd think the reverse is true too, if something is airtight, no liquid (water or oil) can go through.
    And then, you have to show me any membrane that is airtight by design that allows any other gas or liquid to seep through against pressure from the other side.

    It would be easy to proof this:
    Take any (even already partially ruined) Thermarest, inflate it, pour oil or any other liquid under suspicion over it, and wait for it to delaminate....

    My guess is, that "body oils ruined the pads" is a lame excuse by the manufacturer.
    On top of that, a pad designed for humans to sleep on it should be designed to resist the most common output humans provide?
    I had Thermarest pads used as swimming aids in the sea and as beach pad for a sunlotion soaked body - and they didn't fail.
    I have other models from Thermarest that didn't delaminate.
    It seems that the Prolite Plus is specifically prone to failure (all thre pads that failed me were Prolite Plus)

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tipi Walter View Post
    Obviously I have Thermarest tattooed onto my brain and can't seem to leave the brand, probably because I've been using Thermarest since June of 1980 ...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

    I kid, mostly.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo L. View Post
    My guess is, that "body oils ruined the pads" is a lame excuse by the manufacturer.
    On top of that, a pad designed for humans to sleep on it should be designed to resist the most common output humans provide?
    ...
    It seems that the Prolite Plus is specifically prone to failure (all thre pads that failed me were Prolite Plus)
    1) Tend to agree on it being an excuse.
    2) Totally agree ... these things are made to have people sleep on them! Should be built for purpose.
    3) Interesting ... my friend's pad was also a Prolite Plus.

    As for me, I totally felt that after age 40, the hips and shoulders just couldn't take a CCF pad and nothing else. I had Ridgerests, an old Classic and recently, a Solar that is a smidge thicker as well. After some mixed results with inflatables and self-inflators, I recently embarked on an effort to see if I could get used to just having the Ridgerest. As it turns out, I've had some pretty good nights on them ... when I've been really tired/exhausted. That seems to help a great deal. When I'm not so worn out, it's definitely harder to sleep well on them. I sure like having a quiet pad and not having to worry about it deflating or worse.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by cspan View Post
    As for me, I totally felt that after age 40, the hips and shoulders just couldn't take a CCF pad and nothing else. I had Ridgerests, an old Classic and recently, a Solar that is a smidge thicker as well. After some mixed results with inflatables and self-inflators, I recently embarked on an effort to see if I could get used to just having the Ridgerest. As it turns out, I've had some pretty good nights on them ... when I've been really tired/exhausted. That seems to help a great deal. When I'm not so worn out, it's definitely harder to sleep well on them. I sure like having a quiet pad and not having to worry about it deflating or worse.
    I went thru my Ridgerest phase back in 1985 when I was younger and beefier and liked the fuss-free use of a ccf pad. Now I require ultimate comfort etc etc plus the old ridgerest never worked on ice and snow. Although currently my tandem winter pads are an inflatable along with a solar ridgerest.

    In the old days we used vintage ensolite pads---those floppy things. I got a pic showing two vintage pads from the early days---


    Pis taken on Trail 268A on Upper Creek in Pisgah NF. Lindal on the left has the old fabric covered egg crate pad. On the right is one of the old ensolite pads.

  15. #35
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    True!
    While at 60 I'm not yet in the class of Walter age-wise, I still highly apprecciate the comfort of an inflatable over a CCF-only. I need way more time to recover from a day of strenuous hiking nowadays than in younger years.
    During my local multiday hikes I typically retire to the campsite at around 5-6pm and am done with all the chores at 7pm, and will close my eyes for a restful night of ~10hrs.
    In the desert, the dayli routine is quite similar and enforced by the sunset/sunrise, which happens to be around 6pm/6am.
    So after all I spend roughly 40-45% of the time on the pad during a hike. Makes it a very important piece of equipment for me.

  16. #36

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    Yes, a very important piece of equipment. Hence the backups, the emergency pad caches, the carried spares, the multiple repair kits---the redundancy.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsherry61 View Post
    In recent years there are getting to be some good alternatives that address those two very issues without adding weight and volume.

    I seem to keep coming back to the Sea-to-Summit pads because they are surprisingly comfortable and not bouncy and not noisy compared to most alternatives. Their whole structure and fabric is unique in the industry.

    Also, the less expensive quilted style inflatable pads like the new 2017 REI Flash aren't very bouncy and are made with relatively quieter shell fabric. I think the technology is similar in the Klymit V pads and the Outdoorsman Lab pads?

    The Nemo Tensor is back in the $150 range, like the S2S pads, but is thicker than the S2S and quieter than a Termarest NeoXlite and not as bouncy as many of the thicker and/or longitudinally baffled pads like many Big Agnes pads.


    Of the pads I've used, I like the NeoAir X-Lite except for the noise which really isn't all that bad for me especially on the newer models. I like the S2S except it is a couple oz heavier and not quite as warm. I like the REI Flash et al., but find them not as warm or as robust as the NeoAir X-lite or S2S. I like the BA pads except for their bounciness and the fact that I've had higher valve failure rate on the BA than either the NeoAir or the S2S. Also, the NeoAir X-therm is a fair bit quieter than the X-Lite, quite a bit warmer, and only a couple oz heavier. Finally, although the Nemo Tensor is comfortable like the X-lite and much quieter. But, Nemo's claim of warmth to 20*F in the Tensor insulated model is bull. It's weight is similar to my X-lite but it is not nearly as warm as either my NeoAir X-lite or my S2S, so I don't really have a use for it.
    The Nemo Tensor is the one I went with for that very reason.....but still it's an air mattress

  18. #38
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    Walt
    Thinking about your pad dissection earlier today.
    Was the delamination a separation of the fabric form the foam, or was it layers of fabric delaminating?

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by blw2 View Post
    Walt
    Thinking about your pad dissection earlier today.
    Was the delamination a separation of the fabric form the foam, or was it layers of fabric delaminating?
    It was fabric pulling away from the foam--and foam pulling away from itself. In effect, the foam itself has little holding power---like wet tissue paper---and so any outward stress causes the foam to separate---and so goes the fabric.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by cspan View Post
    A friend of mine recently had her thermarest (similar to TW's) give birth to a beach ball ... at the foot of the mattress.

    That said, I too suspect an interaction between the glue, foam, and the user's biology ... breath from inflating, sweat, who knows. At first blush, I'd think breath would affect the pad fairly equally, but it's possible more moisture gets trapped more near the valve end ... that while the air gets uniformly distributed, the moisture does not. Certainly the warm moisture would not.

    The other main suspect involves perspiration and/or skin oils from the outside of the pad somehow permeating the outer layer and affecting the adhesive on its underside. I'm not sure how that would work - presumably an airtight pad would also resist allowing water and skin oils to pass through.
    I would guess that it is saliva, with its hosts of microorganisms living off the occasional sugars and other tiny bits of food being injected near the valve.
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