Pitching Fly first- BA tents

[Crossup]

I can't tell you how many times I've seen reviews, guides and individuals bemoan most non European tents not allowing one to pitch tents fly first so one can keep the inner dry while pitching in rain. I consider that a very important feature and today it occurred to me there did not appear to be any reason why I could not do it with my Big Agnes Copper Spur. Turns out its easy and only takes no extra time, in fact it has some advantages for non rainy use. This should work for any BA tent using a clip on inner.

I cant be the only one who knows this but thought I'd post to bring this to more peoples attention.

[Crossup]

Dang, forgot to mention it does require either extra pegs or the BA ground cloth.

[rocketsocks]

Yup, ya just gotta be a little nimble.

[Venchka]

Henry Shires of the TarpTent company has been selling his double wall tents that set up fly first, and inner attached for a long time. Extra stakes & ground cloth & extra weight not required. Either the fly or the inner tent can be used alone as well.
Too bad you missed this information when you were tent shopping.
Wayne

[Crossup]

Not understanding what makes you think I didnt know that.
I will tell you I'd still pick my Copper Spur UL3 over either 3P Tarptents. Tarptents have an excellent feature set and attractive price but they share an attribute with BA platinum tents which I'm not willing to accept, can you guess what it is?

After several weeks of research its come down to DIY and a Flycreek UL2 (not the Platinum version). Cost is only an issue as far as when I buy, but at $233 I'm having a really hard time ignoring(again) my aversion to going with one of the most popular brands.

[nsherry61]

Having spend most of my backpacking life in the Pacific NW over the last 50 years which means, it seems about 1/2 my backpacking days/nights included rain, I am baffled by how important people find this ability to pitch the fly first is. It probably hasn't been 1/2 the times I've pitched my tent (in all honesty, often just tarps), but I often pitch tents in the rain and . . .

I've NEVER found it critical to be able to pitch the fly first!!!

What is this fly first obsession our community has. Is it a great sounding idea that people think they need because they are scared of getting some moisture on their inner tent because they haven't really spent much time backpacking in the rain, where, by the way, pretty much everything gets damp, so don't sweat the small stuff?

Is it a marketing issue so manufactures have sold us on the idea so we feel we have to also have a fitted footprint along with our tent?
I have heard experienced people express that they think the fly first pitching option is important. I just don't get it.
If it is dumping in a cloud-burst type way, wait a few minutes, do a few other camp chores or go for a short exploratory hike around your camp site and then pitch your tent when the rain tapers off to a more steady-state.
If the rain is just typical rain (whatever that is), how long does pitching your tent really take? In most cases, not long enough to get the inner more than damp, which it will be in the morning anyway when you wake up, so what's the big deal?

I can honestly say that I have never pitched a tent in the rain such that the inner tent got so wet that it was a problem because I couldn't pitch the fly first. Frankly, I'd rather pitch my tent in the fastest possible way instead of the temporarily driest way, if I'm getting wet and/or cold and want to get out of the rain.

[Turtle-2013]

... Is it a marketing issue so manufactures have sold us on the idea so we feel we have to also have a fitted footprint along with our tent? ...

I concur with the entire post ... although in the spirit of full disclosure I now use a tarp-tent of my own design that sets up very nicely in the rain.

However, I've never understood the footprint concept. If you pick a good location the floor is all you need, and if it isn't enough on your tent, why did you buy a tent that the floor needs additional "protection" ... To me the foot print is just a way to spend more money and carry more weight.

BUT ... to each their own, hike your own hike, and if a footprint floats your tent ... go for it!

[Crossup]

With a an entire week of sunny camping under my belt vs your experience, I feel eminently qualified to reply.
In the case of my BA Copper Spur the fastest way to get out of the rain is to pitch the fly, once inside I can pitch the inner at my leisure which is fine since I'm shielded from the rain and wind and in any case it only costs. a few extra seconds doing it from inside. This has the side benefit of not having to slop around in the mud outside while hanging the inner....well worth it to me.

[AllDownhillFromHere]

Next up: "Are we brainwashed into thinking we need a footprint for our tents, that we're brainwashed into buying?"

Also, for BA and other tents, check out this UL way of setting up the fly fastpack style:
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/59825/

[rocketsocks]

34 degrees and raining would most certainly have me taking a little time to remain as dry as possible.

[nsherry61]

With a an entire week of sunny camping under my belt vs your experience, I feel eminently qualified to reply. . .

That's the attitude. This is what makes these forums great, really!

I truely appreciate fresh persective. It helps keep me from getting stuck in ruts.

FWIW: I actually like and own a BA CS2 that is my go-to tent when I use a tent. I have a footprint for it that I bought at an REI garage sale for $5. And, out on the trail (or off trail) I have never even thought about trying to pitch it fly first when it's raining. I've also never tried out the footprint in the two years I've had it. I should do both, at least in my back yard, at some point. Instead I spend my spare time screwing around pitching tarps, or making stoves. . . I think I'll build a soup-can wood-burning stove this afternoon.

34 degrees and raining would most certainly have me taking a little time to remain as dry as possible.

Welcome to western Oregon, Washington, Yukon, and Alaska most of the year. As dry as possible is a silly concept when everything is wet and it's really more about manageably damp vs. dangerously wet. A little bit of damp tent inner is irrelevant, especially since, regardless of how you pitch your tent, your inner will soon be damp if it is 34 degrees and raining. When it's 34 degrees and raining, the key is to stay active until you're not and when you're not, quickly get the heck inside something warm and adequately dry. . . that and get a stove going so you can get some warm drink inside you and maybe a warm water bottle inside your sleeping bag to help it either dry out a little more or stay dryer.

[squeezebox]

I do own a Copper Spur. I was just thinking of pitching with the fly loose over the inner tent. That would produce less rain inside the inner tent. And maybe more flexibility than fly first. and no specific need for a ground cloth if that is your preference. ???

[rocketsocks]

That's the attitude. This is what makes these forums great, really!

I truely appreciate fresh persective. It helps keep me from getting stuck in ruts.

FWIW: I actually like and own a BA CS2 that is my go-to tent when I use a tent. I have a footprint for it that I bought at an REI garage sale for $5. And, out on the trail (or off trail) I have never even thought about trying to pitch it fly first when it's raining. I've also never tried out the footprint in the two years I've had it. I should do both, at least in my back yard, at some point. Instead I spend my spare time screwing around pitching tarps, or making stoves. . . I think I'll build a soup-can wood-burning stove this afternoon.


Welcome to western Oregon, Washington, Yukon, and Alaska most of the year. As dry as possible is a silly concept when everything is wet and it's really more about manageably damp vs. dangerously wet. A little bit of damp tent inner is irrelevant, especially since, regardless of how you pitch your tent, your inner will soon be damp if it is 34 degrees and raining. When it's 34 degrees and raining, the key is to stay active until you're not and when you're not, quickly get the heck inside something warm and adequately dry. . . that and get a stove going so you can get some warm drink inside you and maybe a warm water bottle inside your sleeping bag to help it either dry out a little more or stay dryer.

i hear what yur sayin’ but it’s not all or nothing, it really dosent take that much effort to pitch fly first, for me it’s a little pseudo limbo move to catch the top...not a big deal.

[nsherry61]

i hear what yur sayin’ but it’s not all or nothing, it really dosent take that much effort to pitch fly first, for me it’s a little pseudo limbo move to catch the top...not a big deal.

Yeah. I would probably benefit from playing with various alternate tent pitching techniques in my back yard at least.

I just find it annoying that being able to pitch fly-first is so commonly touted as a deal breaker (or at least a top priority) for people when choosing tents, and yet from my perspective, it is of such little consequence I don't think it deserves the focus of attention it gets.

- I think being able to open the tent in the rain and not get rain inside is far more important than pitching fly-first.
- I think a zipper that doesn't snag and can be opened with one hand (without having to hold the tent with your other hand to work it) is far more valuable that pitching fly-first.
- Frankly, I think a tent that is the right color for my taste is more important than being able to pitch it fly-first. And I don't really give a rip about color.
- A tent with guy-out points designed well enough to withstand heavy winds and not tearing is more important than pitching fly-first.
- I think a tent with a fly that comes down low enough relative to the wrap-up of the bathtub floor to keep the tent dry in hard blowing rain is much more important that pitching fly-first.
- I think saving 8 oz (hell 2 oz) in tent weight is more important that pitching fly-first.

But, in the end, I have to admit, that if everything else is to my liking, I think being able to pitch a tent fly-first is a nifty feature worth experimenting with.

[evyck da fleet]

I’ve found that pitching a tent in the rain, especially when I’m leaning over it, and then setting up the fly gets less moisture inside than bringing my wet rain jacket, pants, pack cover body clothes etc in the tent. The little cloth I use to wipe the morning dew off the fly works fine and takes seconds to dry the inside of the tent after setting up in the rain.

[Just Bill]

I grew up when the hot thing was the UL dome tents with pole sleeves. I still think it's a superior system. (hence my tent building experience recreating them)
With the fly pre-attached as it used to be on The North Face tents and the pole sleeve it was about as close to a 'pop up' tent as you could get.

Flip the poles out, feed them in, and pop in one side on the models that had pockets on the far side.
Color coded poles so you could pitch quickly by headlamp and she was up and stormworthy before you even thought about a stake.
Free standing so you could pick it up and set it on a different spot, or shake it out in the morning.

The 'FLY FIRST' thing was a side effect of ditching the pole sleeves and moving to the clip systems.

For a short time, the new pole and clip system was a way to save a bit of weight.

In reality it saves sewing labor and cutting as far as I can tell.
You actually lose livable area within a given pole structure with a clip system.
Many of the clip system tents fall into the 'semi-freestanding' category now as well. Which is not a big deal for some, but if you're going to give up the advantages of a freestanding tent then you might as well just fall back to a tarp tent type system and save weight. The whole purpose of the complicated design of a pole system tent is to give you a free standing structure with the greatest possible room. I'd guess that's why we've seen the cottage vendors and many LD hikers going for the tarp tent style structures. If you need to stake out and mess with a bunch of clips then it's little more work to do a tarp tent which can give you a bigger shelter footprint for a given weight.

The clips can give you more open space between the fly and the inner wall, but there are ways to do that with a traditional dome tent.
Fabric advances have certainly helped with the condensation issues that used to be the big complaint with more traditional domes.

The footprint thing is it's own thing.

PS... what some 'Fly first' advocates fail to discuss.
Regardless of the system you pick; you are personally still standing in the rain. Likely you hiked in the rain. Most probably you're already soaked.

The fly first system is only needed because you have to lay your tent body out flat, so it catches all the rain, while you set up your poles and clip the body to them.

A sleeved pole dome system did not have that issue. With some practice- you could feed your pole into the sleeve while the tent was still more or less bundled up. As you raise that first pole it's already 'fly out' and not laying flat on the ground.

[nsherry61]

I grew up when the hot thing was the UL dome tents with pole sleeves. . .

I can't say I grew up with them since I remember them being the new thing about the time I was sewing my first Frostline Kit tent, and I couldn't afford and didn't want to carry the bigger heavier dome tent kit.

I have to disagree with you about some of the benefits of pole sleeves. The sleeves do make a much sturdier tent in high winds (a potentially very important point), but I find that sleeve tents take me more time to set up than clip tents by a small margine. I don't find pole sleeve tents less prone to getting wet when being set up in the rain and I don't agree with the space issue since the pole system is built to provide a particular tent size, not the other way around. Finally, clip tents can have more sophisticated pole structures with hubs and the like that would never slide through sleeves. Because of the separation of tent body from pole, the clip tents are able to have more variable tent body and pole shapes providing roomier and lighter tents.

Of course, nothing beats a simple tarp!

[rocketsocks]

Yeah. I would probably benefit from playing with various alternate tent pitching techniques in my back yard at least.

I just find it annoying that being able to pitch fly-first is so commonly touted as a deal breaker (or at least a top priority) for people when choosing tents, and yet from my perspective, it is of such little consequence I don't think it deserves the focus of attention it gets.

- I think being able to open the tent in the rain and not get rain inside is far more important than pitching fly-first.
- I think a zipper that doesn't snag and can be opened with one hand (without having to hold the tent with your other hand to work it) is far more valuable that pitching fly-first.
- Frankly, I think a tent that is the right color for my taste is more important than being able to pitch it fly-first. And I don't really give a rip about color.
- A tent with guy-out points designed well enough to withstand heavy winds and not tearing is more important than pitching fly-first.
- I think a tent with a fly that comes down low enough relative to the wrap-up of the bathtub floor to keep the tent dry in hard blowing rain is much more important that pitching fly-first.
- I think saving 8 oz (hell 2 oz) in tent weight is more important that pitching fly-first.

But, in the end, I have to admit, that if everything else is to my liking, I think being able to pitch a tent fly-first is a nifty feature worth experimenting with.

I should have added I’m right there with ya, why pitch in a teaming rain, the old adage comes to mind. don’t like the weather, wait awhile, it’ll change.

[Just Bill]

I can't say I grew up with them since I remember them being the new thing about the time I was sewing my first Frostline Kit tent, and I couldn't afford and didn't want to carry the bigger heavier dome tent kit.

I have to disagree with you about some of the benefits of pole sleeves. The sleeves do make a much sturdier tent in high winds (a potentially very important point), but I find that sleeve tents take me more time to set up than clip tents by a small margine. I don't find pole sleeve tents less prone to getting wet when being set up in the rain and I don't agree with the space issue since the pole system is built to provide a particular tent size, not the other way around. Finally, clip tents can have more sophisticated pole structures with hubs and the like that would never slide through sleeves. Because of the separation of tent body from pole, the clip tents are able to have more variable tent body and pole shapes providing roomier and lighter tents.

Of course, nothing beats a simple tarp!

Are you trying to say you're older than me

I'm speaking of the best of each on the high end.
Nobody does a good old style dome out of modern materials- but the feed from one side, fly attached domes remain the fastest and lightest still for a given weight of poles.

As in- yar you can do all kinds of funky stuff with the hub systems and custom one-off structrual pole sets- but few things as space efficient as the simple dome and that translates in weight of the poles too.

Tents are designed around a footprint, and some pretty standard shapes. While it's true the hub systems can give you a nice little pop of headroom at the peak.. the geometric shape cuts out quite a bit more interior space especially at the edges or foot area. A dome doesn't do that.
If you got a 4'x 7' dome tent you mostly have the full footprint worth of usable space.
On the other extreme is a pyramid... a 4x9 pyramid is about the smallest practical size... and that's a minimalist solo.
The clip systems end up someplace in between.

This tent used to weigh 2lbs 4 ounces. 10 or 15 years ago.
https://www.rei.com/product/735254/t...e-rock-22-tent

The hub and clip systems look cool. A few of them are cool.
But a straight run of the newest SUL DAC poles in combo with a classic sleeve dome in some of that 1 oz or under Big agnes fabric would be pretty sweet.

https://www.rei.com/product/111797/b...-platinum-tent

That's one of the hot ones... and it weighs more than The North Face hotties from 10+ years ago.

[Leo L.]

When I bought my MSR Hubba Hubba NX two years ago, first thing I added was a groundcloth mady from a piece of housewrap with straps attatched to the corners.
So I'm able to pitch the tent in both ways, inner first, or fly first.

The later came in handy when I was hiking with my wife last year, and came to the campspot just when a downpour started.
I pulled out the poles from the sleeve and arranged them on the ground, ordered my wife to hunker down atop the poles, and after handing her the rest of the tent pack threw the rainfly atop of her.
So within the few seconds this took time, she was out of the rain, and while I waited under the canopy of a big fir giving her some hints how to proceed, she was able to setup groundsheet and rainlfy to a nice protective dome that lets her relax and get out of the dripping wet raingear. To clip the inner to the poles was a more difficult task, but she finally managed it.

When I crept into the tent minutes (many minutes) later I found my wife comfortabely snug into the sleeping bag, smilig.
Whats better than to have a happy wife in the house, eh, tent?