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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllDownhillFromHere View Post
    Written by an intern at CNN from a liberal arts college. Oh, and she's white.
    So, what has that to do with anything? Was there anything factually wrong with the article? We can argue for reasons why, but the fact remains there is little diversity in the backpacking community and long distance hiking in particular. The author of the study concentrated on National Park visitors, which makes sense since you can qualify Park visits a lot easier then who visits random trail heads. But as anyone who has spent time on the AT or in trail towns knows, the AT is about as lily white as it can get. Is that because of our privileged heritage or some predisposition to wander lust? Inquiring minds want to know...
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    So, what has that to do with anything? Was there anything factually wrong with the article? We can argue for reasons why, but the fact remains there is little diversity in the backpacking community and long distance hiking in particular. The author of the study concentrated on National Park visitors, which makes sense since you can qualify Park visits a lot easier then who visits random trail heads. But as anyone who has spent time on the AT or in trail towns knows, the AT is about as lily white as it can get. Is that because of our privileged heritage or some predisposition to wander lust? Inquiring minds want to know...
    if by privileged ya mean insiteful enough to know that giving up the creature comforts of home can not only build character but is down right fun in the worst of weather.

  3. #23

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    ...then aye, am privileged.

  4. #24

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    I really see not point in fixing a problem by creating an issue, who cares! Honestly.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownEaster View Post
    Outdoor recreation is an entirely voluntary activity. As long as there are no structural barriers to participation, I don't see any reason to get worked up about lack of diversity. We might just as well complain that long trails have too many young (right out of high school or college) and old (retired) hikers, and not enough ages in between.

    Enjoy the outdoors. Enjoy the people in the outdoors. Spread your enthusiasm; maybe more will join. And that's enough, I think.
    We like to think we have free-will and are masters of our own destiny, but in reality we are victims (or beneficiaries) of our circumstances, whether we like it or not, whether we admit it or not. So to say participation in wilderness recreation is entirely voluntary may be literally true but the reality is much more complicated. Being a member of a Catholic Church is also voluntary, but you are much more likely to be Catholic if you were raised in a family and community where being Catholic is common. Going to college is voluntary, but you are much more likely to go to (and be successful in) college if you were raised in a family and community where going to college is common. You can also substitute negative circumstances into this sentence (child abuse, homelessness, etc...) and it will still be true. So while there may not be structural barriers to prevent people from participating in beneficial activities, there are barriers of culture and tradition and these are barriers just the same.

    I know there are physical and emotional benefits to wilderness recreation (and there are plenty of studies to support this) and it is not my nature to restrict these benefits to people of my community. I also value wilderness conservation, not just for my benefit, but for the benefit of the planet as a whole, and thus having more people who understand this is also a good thing. Therefore, for me, I do see it as a problem when there is a large community of people for whom access to wilderness recreation is "restricted" and if I wanted to have the greatest positive impact on people and on wilderness conservation, this is where I would focus my efforts.

    Now for my personal anecdote. My wife and I visited Yosemite NP six years ago. This was the summer after after Oprah Winfrey broadcast some shows profiling her camping trip trip to Yosemite at the invitation of Shelton Johnson, the African American park ranger (whom you may also know from his interviews in Ken Burns' documentary series on the NPS). Ranger Johnson was was concerned about the low number of African American visitors to the National Parks (1% was the number he gave at the time) and thought Oprah would be a good person to shed some light on this issue. On our trip, my wife and I took a ranger guided walk through the Maraposa Grove. The ranger who led the walk (whose name I forgot, I'm sorry), was an African American. Before the walk started, he said he wanted to start out by per-emptively answering the question everyone asks. "What was Oprah like?". He explained that it was not him, but Ranger Johnson who was on that episode. Shelton, he explained "is the other black park ranger."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Odd Man Out View Post
    So while there may not be structural barriers to prevent people from participating in beneficial activities, there are barriers of culture and tradition and these are barriers just the same.
    where this argument fails is in the implication, which is unconscious and not acknowledged, that one way is better than the other. you're stating your culture is better, but whos to say it is?

    going to college is a good example. who says this is a good thing? you believe it is because of how you were raised. it is not intrinsically so. you see, it cuts both ways.

    whos to say being outdoors is some sort of great beneficial thing? people who were raised that way.

    so others should do it too? you're guilty of the "sin" you are preaching against.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odd Man Out View Post
    We like to think we have free-will and are masters of our own destiny, but in reality we are victims (or beneficiaries) of our circumstances, whether we like it or not, whether we admit it or not. So to say participation in wilderness recreation is entirely voluntary may be literally true but the reality is much more complicated. Being a member of a Catholic Church is also voluntary, but you are much more likely to be Catholic if you were raised in a family and community where being Catholic is common. Going to college is voluntary, but you are much more likely to go to (and be successful in) college if you were raised in a family and community where going to college is common. You can also substitute negative circumstances into this sentence (child abuse, homelessness, etc...) and it will still be true. So while there may not be structural barriers to prevent people from participating in beneficial activities, there are barriers of culture and tradition and these are barriers just the same.

    I know there are physical and emotional benefits to wilderness recreation (and there are plenty of studies to support this) and it is not my nature to restrict these benefits to people of my community. I also value wilderness conservation, not just for my benefit, but for the benefit of the planet as a whole, and thus having more people who understand this is also a good thing. Therefore, for me, I do see it as a problem when there is a large community of people for whom access to wilderness recreation is "restricted" and if I wanted to have the greatest positive impact on people and on wilderness conservation, this is where I would focus my efforts.

    Now for my personal anecdote. My wife and I visited Yosemite NP six years ago. This was the summer after after Oprah Winfrey broadcast some shows profiling her camping trip trip to Yosemite at the invitation of Shelton Johnson, the African American park ranger (whom you may also know from his interviews in Ken Burns' documentary series on the NPS). Ranger Johnson was was concerned about the low number of African American visitors to the National Parks (1% was the number he gave at the time) and thought Oprah would be a good person to shed some light on this issue. On our trip, my wife and I took a ranger guided walk through the Maraposa Grove. The ranger who led the walk (whose name I forgot, I'm sorry), was an African American. Before the walk started, he said he wanted to start out by per-emptively answering the question everyone asks. "What was Oprah like?". He explained that it was not him, but Ranger Johnson who was on that episode. Shelton, he explained "is the other black park ranger."
    Thank you for this insightful commentary, well thought out and articulately expressed.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odd Man Out View Post
    We like to think we have free-will and are masters of our own destiny, but in reality we are victims (or beneficiaries) of our circumstances, whether we like it or not, whether we admit it or not. So to say participation in wilderness recreation is entirely voluntary may be literally true but the reality is much more complicated. Being a member of a Catholic Church is also voluntary, but you are much more likely to be Catholic if you were raised in a family and community where being Catholic is common. Going to college is voluntary, but you are much more likely to go to (and be successful in) college if you were raised in a family and community where going to college is common. You can also substitute negative circumstances into this sentence (child abuse, homelessness, etc...) and it will still be true. So while there may not be structural barriers to prevent people from participating in beneficial activities, there are barriers of culture and tradition and these are barriers just the same.
    This is pretty much total nonsense, as far as I can tell. I was, in fact, raised Catholic; I'm not a Catholic now. Nobody in my family tree had gone to college, yet I did.

    Free will exists. Every day provides new challenges (not barriers), and you either overcome them or fail to do so. So-called "barriers of culture and tradition" have only the weight we give to them, and I prefer to give them very little weight indeed.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    So, what has that to do with anything? Was there anything factually wrong with the article? We can argue for reasons why, but the fact remains there is little diversity in the backpacking community and long distance hiking in particular. The author of the study concentrated on National Park visitors, which makes sense since you can qualify Park visits a lot easier then who visits random trail heads. But as anyone who has spent time on the AT or in trail towns knows, the AT is about as lily white as it can get. Is that because of our privileged heritage or some predisposition to wander lust? Inquiring minds want to know...
    The writer is a typical self loathing SJW agenda pusher. Articles such as that are par for the course these days from graduates of universities that have increasingly become indoctrination and propaganda centers. Read enough material from these writers and you can actually have fun of sorts seeing exactly how far in before the evil White man is blamed for virtually every social ill on the planet. This one at least had the "decency" of blaming only the rich ones, but there you go.

    As far as why being out in the boonies is a predominantly White demographic, who knows exactly? But i'll tell you this, if i went around and announced i was going to do the AT, people would look at me like i was either out of my mind or just plain stupid. To be brutally honest, quite a number of people i've known throughout the years in the barrios, ghettoes, slums, etc wouldn't give the slightest bit of a damn about something like hiking/backpacking, much less thruhiking. To be out there getting rained on, sloshing through mud, bugs everywhere, sleeping in the rough, etc for the sheer pleasure of it is dumber than dumb, period. Those folks are purely Urban types with a trip to the beach or something like Bear MT being nature time. I'll get a better reaction by laying out the maps and pictures of the hairiest parts of the trail and defining it as a challenge or a competition. Muy macho, you know. Even then people will think i've gone all the way nuts (Personally, i have a lifelong rep of crazy ass behavior at times). Might as well not say anything until Springer.

    As i mentioned before, the article is just plainly one of the most idiotic things i've ever seen. What's next, quotas perhaps? Affirmative Action distance reductions for the Triple Crown? Racial reservations at shelters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by El JP View Post
    As i mentioned before, the article is just plainly one of the most idiotic things i've ever seen. What's next, quotas perhaps? Affirmative Action distance reductions for the Triple Crown? Racial reservations at shelters?
    You should really step away from that slippery slope.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    where this argument fails is in the implication, which is unconscious and not acknowledged, that one way is better than the other. you're stating your culture is better, but whos to say it is?
    I would disagree.

    People are more likely to explore new experiences and challenges when they see others they identify with go before them.

    Isn’t that a big reason why we have something like 20,000 2000-milers on record?

    Isn’t that a big part of why see the hikes of Earl Shaffer and Grandma Gratewood as so significant?

    As an aside, I had long thought I was the last southbounder the year I hiked (1983).

    I later learned that a (edit: possible) Tuskegee Airman was just a short while behind me at least until Harpers Ferry, and very possibly the all the way to Springer.

    I wish I would have had a chance to share a shelter conversation with him.
    Last edited by rickb; 11-20-2017 at 07:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    I would disagree.

    People are more likely to explore new experiences and challenges when they see others they identify with go before them.
    but it cuts both ways. are there no experiences you or i do not seek because we don't see others like us engaging in them, whatever we take to mean "like us" ?

    is anyone bemoaning that there are "barriers" preventing us from experiencing those things and that everyone must all band together to tear down those walls? whos to say it would actually truly be of a benefit for us to be able to experience them?

    i go back to the college example, as it is something a certain segment of the population embraces and sees value in. not everyone gets to go to college. to think this is an inherently negative thing is nonsense. college is good for some, or at least perceived as good for some. it is not a universal truth that it is.

    same applies for hiking. to sit here and say that people who face "barriers" that prevent them from hiking totally ignores the fact that maybe, perhaps for cultural reasons beyond their control, they just have no desire to hike, and that there is not anything wrong with that.

    there are barriers, real or imagined, all around us for all of us. we pick and choose ones that we notice and decide are some sort of major issue. especially lately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DownEaster View Post
    ........ Every day provides new challenges (not barriers), and you either overcome them or fail to do so. So-called "barriers of culture and tradition" have only the weight we give to them, and I prefer to give them very little weight indeed.
    I think barrier is the wrong word in this discussion. I think it is more along the line if being comfortable and at ease with your surroundings and the people around you. When I was picking out a college it never occurred to me to go a historically black college because I was pretty sure I wouldn't feel comfortable and at ease with my surroundings because there wouldn't be many people who looked liked me. Maybe that is how African Americans feel about National Parks. There are no "barriers" but they just don't feel comfortable and at ease because not many people there look like they do.
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

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    For people of mixed background (myself included) trail names actually further reduce any differences. I've hiked a lot of miles in recent years and I've never noticed any racial discord and I have in fact seen many minorities and women on long trails, and also minorities in developed areas particularly in California (Yosemite, Sequoia, Point Reyes, etc) but also in Shenandoah National Park, probably due to the proximity of the park to diverse parts of Northern Virginia and DC. BTW, the nicest people in America are consistently found in small towns in the South and Appalachia. I sometimes wonder about the stuff I read about stereotypes in newspapers and magazines written and read by people who probably hardly know the places they speak of from first-hand experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasBob View Post
    When I was picking out a college it never occurred to me to go a historically black college because I was pretty sure I wouldn't feel comfortable and at ease with my surroundings because there wouldn't be many people who looked liked me.
    and is there something wrong with those schools? should those colleges have made more of an effort to make you feel welcomed? are they flawed or doing something wrong because they did not?

    conversely, did they actively in anyway do anything to prevent you from attending?

    no one should be prevented from doing something, but neither should the people who do those things fall all over themselves trying to convince others thatthey should be doing it and that the reasons why they are not already is some nefarious evil that needs correcting.

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    Interesting thread.

    I thought the article brought up a lot of good points and the comments in this thread highlight a few of the really questionable generalizations made by the article's author.

    1) Yeah, outdoor recreation is predominantly white males, like business executives have been, and like the NFL and NBA are predominantly black males and farm workers and janitors (in my personal experience) tend to be dominantly Latino.

    2) There are a lot of reasons, many historic and cultural, including media messaging/stereotyping, that lead to these various gender and racial biases in activities. AND, in my opinion, strongly homogeneous groups are generally (not always) indicative of some kind of cultural stereotyping that is often not fair or healthy for that community.

    3) Diversity DOES matter, because without at least some cross-section of people from across cultures with different experiences and expectations we become blind to alternative approaches to issues and become myopic and arrogant about our values and what we believe, expect and do. My favorite example of the value of diversity in community is how many organized religions and/or political groups gain confidence that their point of view is right just because they have a whole group of people in a room together (actual room or metaphorical room) that agree with each other and therefore conclude that the rest of the world must be wrong instead of just legitimately differing in their opinion, approach or judgement of value.

    4) So, I STRONGLY support the efforts of our outdoor community in changing our imaging and outreach efforts to include more people from more different backgrounds that look different from me. I don't feel guilty or responsible for there not being more black, brown, and non-male participants in the outdoors, BUT, I love and support the idea of encouraging more diverse participation.
    I'm not lost. I'm exploring.

  17. #37

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    Leave it to a bunch a over educated white folk, I’m gonna employ occums razor and say...minority’s have the good sense to come in outta the rain.

  18. #38
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    I get it. I am an evil white man. I have white privilege. I have male privilege. I have Christian privilege. I have being tall privilege. Unfortunately I don't have handsome privilege. I feel so ashamed for everything I have, even if I had to work hard for it. I will now rightly feel guilt every time I hit the trail. Bless you, SJW's, for you have shown me the light!
    It is what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPritch View Post
    I get it. I am an evil white man. I have white privilege. I have male privilege. I have Christian privilege. I have being tall privilege. Unfortunately I don't have handsome privilege. I feel so ashamed for everything I have, even if I had to work hard for it. I will now rightly feel guilt every time I hit the trail. Bless you, SJW's, for you have shown me the light!
    You DO get it!

    I would love to see more black and brown people who overcome historic/cultural barriers and engage in the world we share with them. And I enjoy opening their eyes to the natural world. But please, SJW, don't blame me if they don't accept my invitation.
    Last edited by illabelle; 11-20-2017 at 11:57.

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    much ado over nothing. it's a non-issue. you either recreate in the outdoors or you don't. nobody is stopping anyone from enjoying the outdoors. bucncha middle class white folks thinkin' they know why folks don't walk in woods. phhttttt

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